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Young Earth or Old?

Jerry Shugart

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it says he formed it to be inhabited . why did you change the word

Because of the "context":

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

The words that "He formed it to be inhabited" are explaining the words "not in vain." And the words "not in vain" are referring to how He created the earth. So it can be phrased this way:

"He did not create the earth in vain because He created it to be inhabited."

It defies common sense to assert that the word "formed" at Isaiah 45:18 has nothing to do with How the LORD "created" the earth.

You are grasping at straws.
 

JudgeRightly

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Because of the "context":

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

The words that "He formed it to be inhabited" are explaining the words "not in vain." And the words "not in vain" are referring to how He created the earth. So it can be phrased this way:

"He did not create the earth in vain because He created it to be inhabited."

It defies common sense to assert that the word "formed" at Isaiah 45:18 has nothing to do with How the LORD "created" the earth.

You are grasping at straws.
Bara (create) is not asah (form).

Bara (create) is not yatsar (make).

God bara the heavens and the earth.

He then asah the formless and void earth into something to be habitable.

Again, YOU'RE THE ONE saying God created it in vain, because YOU'RE THE ONE who is saying that the world somehow became formless, after God created it perfect.
 

Jerry Shugart

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We are saying, just as the Bible does, that God simply created the heaves and the earth, and then over the next six days, He formed it to be inhabited.

I say that when He created the heavens and the earth he created them perfectly in one moment. Why would He not?

When He created man did He not created him perfectly? Why would He create the earth differently than the way that He created man?

Or do you think that when He created man the man was formless and then the LORD had to give him a form?

If your answer is "no" then explain why you believe that the LORD would make the earth formless and then give it a form?

You don't think the LORD could get it right the first try?
 

Jerry Shugart

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Again, YOU'RE THE ONE saying God created it in vain, because YOU'RE THE ONE who is saying that the world somehow became formless, after God created it perfect.

Does the LORD bear the ultimate responsibility for what Paul wrote about the present creation?:

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Ro.8:22).​

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary we read the following about Romans 8:22:

"God judged the totality of His creation along with people for their son."
 

oatmeal

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God only creates perfect things,
how did it become imperfect without anyone else to cause it to become imperfect ?


Without form and void does not mean imperfect just not formed yet.

God created all the matter and energy of creation perfectly on day one.

So where is your scripture to support the notion that there was no one else to cause it to become imperfect?

Where do you get the idea that without form and void is perfect?

What day one? Are you referring to the first day of the six or some other day?
 

JudgeRightly

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I say that when He created the heavens and the earth he created them perfectly in one moment.

Yet Genesis 1 says He took 6 days to do it, and that He ceased making on the seventh day.

Why would He not?

This is question begging.

You need to show that He did, whereas we simply accept what the Bible says, which is that He created in 6 days, and rested on the seventh.

When He created man did He not created him perfectly?

He did. And?

Why would He create the earth differently than the way that He created man?

What makes you think He did?

He took matter that He created, formed it into a ball, and turned some of that matter into water. Then made the crust of the earth, and on the dry land and the seas and He made plants, animals, and in the sky birds and flying creatures, insects. He then took some of the dust of the earth, and sculpted an image, then breathed life itself into that image, and made Man.

Or do you think that when He created man the man was formless and then the LORD had to give him a form?

The Bible tells us how God made man.

He took the dust from the earth and made an image, then breathed life into it.

Genesis 2:7.

The word used is "yatsar," to form.

So to answer your question, yes, man had no form prior to God creating him. God took dust from the earth, formed into the shape of an image God created, then breathed life into it.

Just like He had been doing for the past 6 days.

If your answer is "no" then explain why you believe that the LORD would make the earth formless and then give it a form?

The very first verse in Genesis says God CREATED (bara) the heavens and the earth.

It says nothing about forming them.

The second verse in the Bible says that the heavens and the earth that God had just created (bara) was without form and void.

God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

That's literally what it means to be "without form".

God created matter and the universe, but the matter had no form because God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

Jerry, have you ever seen a potter at work? Ever made pottery before?

I have.

You take a lump of wet clay, slam it down in the center of the wheel (so that it sticks well), and then you start turning the wheel. Then you get your hands dirty. You start by smoothing out the clay, trying to get it round, and centering it even further on the wheel.

It takes a lot of effort for a person to mold clay on a wheel, but here's the thing:

If someone is working at a potter's wheel, they aren't doing it because they're forced to, because they have no other option.

Rather, they're doing it because they enjoy the way the clay feels in their hands, they enjoy molding it into a beautiful vase or jar or bowl.

Where do you think that love for molding came from, Jerry?

Could it have been from God Himself? Creation was a new experience for God, as He had never done it before. Maybe He found out that molding things was something He enjoyed doing, and so took the next six days to mold the universe to be inhabited by creatures that He made, and then, to top it all off, He made a creature above all the others, Man, to have dominion over what God had made.

You don't think the LORD could get it right the first try?

Of course He could. But that's moving the goalposts.

God, if He had wanted to, could have snapped His fingers and created a universe fully formed.

But He didn't do it all at once.

He took the time to do it in six days, because He could do that also, and He enjoyed molding His creation into something He liked.

Does the LORD bear the ultimate responsibility for what Paul wrote about the present creation?:

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Ro.8:22).​

No, He doesn't. That belongs to man.

Which is why you have no grounds to stand on by claiming that there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, because the only being that existed at that point was God. Therefore, if Creation had become formless and void, instead of God creating it, and it no having form to begin with and then God forming it to be inhabited, it would mean that, no matter how much time had passed, the twinkling of an eye, or billions upon billions of years, either A) God would have had to have been at fault, because He did something wrong in creating the universe so that it ended up formless and void, or B) God couldn't create something that could last that long even though there were no other beings besides Himself, meaning that what God created wasn't perfect to begin with. Either way, neither of those two options reflect Isaiah 45:18.

That's YOUR position, Jerry. Not ours.

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary we read the following about Romans 8:22:

"God judged the totality of His creation along with people for their son."

:blabla:
 

JudgeRightly

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So where is your scripture to support the notion that there was no one else to cause it to become imperfect?

Your position, Oatsy, is that God is incompetent, or that He created something in vain, trying to create something that was perfect.

Incompetent, in that He could not make anything without it being formless and void, which renders Isaiah 45:18 false, and then for the next untold number of years, it remained that way.
OR
He created in vain, in that somehow he created a perfect universe, but it fell into disarray, which meant He had to start over again.

Whereas all we YEers have to do is simply read the text as is.

God created, then formed that which was unformed and void, and made it to be habitable for His creation.

Where do you get the idea that without form and void is perfect?

Perfect simply means complete in every aspect.

God created matter and the universe, then formed it over 6 days to be inhabited, just like Isaiah 45:18 says. God called it very good.

What day one? Are you referring to the first day of the six or some other day?

This is day one:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:1-5&version=NKJV
 

Jerry Shugart

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Which is why you have no grounds to stand on by claiming that there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, because the only being that existed at that point was God.

Please prove that angels were not created before humans and couldn't have been responsible for the condition of the earth at Genesis 1:2.
 

Jerry Shugart

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The key is understanding that there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew. There is a verb "to become"

The earth was not without form and void in Genesis 1:1 but it became without form and void.

"Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (Gen.1:1-2; CLV).​
 

JudgeRightly

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Please prove that angels were not created before humans and couldn't have been responsible for the condition of the earth at Genesis 1:2.
The Fall happened after Man was created. Not before, Jerry. That's the proof.

There was no death or destruction prior to the Fall.

You're still trying to make up excuses to reject plain scripture?

Besides, angels were most likely created on day four, along with the stars.
"Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (Gen.1:1-2; CLV).​
Cherry picking Bible versions won't help you Jerry. Especially not more modern versions like the Concordant Bible, published in 1926, and revised in '31 and in '66.

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And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the waters. - Genesis 1:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:2&version=GNV (1599)

And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. - Genesis 1:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:2&version=DRA (1899)

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, - Genesis 1:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:2&version=YLT (1862)
 

Stripe

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Please explain how the earth could be "formed" to be inhabited even though, according to you, the earth was created by the LORD "without form."

Because He created "in six days."

Cutting the story off after one verse is silly. It's like: "I'm making this car to be driven. After my first day of work, the panels are cut into pieces, but have not been formed into 3D shapes for the final, aerodynamic design."

Jerry: Ah-hah! You must have spent billions of years making a car that you have kept carefully hidden for no reason.

Your position is bonkers.
 
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Jerry Shugart

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The Fall happened after Man was created. Not before, Jerry. That's the proof.

What about the angels? Were they created during the six days?

Cherry picking Bible versions won't help you Jerry. Especially not more modern versions like the Concordant Bible, published in 1926, and revised in '31 and in '66.

The fact of the matter is that one of the meanings of the word is "to become."

hā·yə·ṯāh--"To fall out, come to pass, become, be"
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes, in the sense that the earth was "re-formed" in six days.
No, Jerry, Jesus reaffirmed Moses, who said that Man (created on day 6) was created at the beginning of creation.

That means there was no "re-forming" the earth, because it wasn't formed to begin with.
 

JudgeRightly

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The fact of the matter is that one of the meanings of the word is "to become."

hā·yə·ṯāh--"To fall out, come to pass, become, be"

And? You think the translators didn't take that into consideration?
 

Jerry Shugart

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Besides, angels were most likely created on day four, along with the stars.

Who are the "sons of God" mentioned in this passage?:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
(Job.38:4-7).​
 
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