On the omniscience of God

Clete

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There is no point debating what nobody can know. If time existed before the universe was created what was God doing all that time? There is no answer. Humans are incapable of comprehending eternity past, with or without time.
Now you say we can't know? Weren't you the one that told me that God knows the end from the beginning because He is the end and the beginning? Now you want to plead ignorance because I have in fact debated it and shown you the point of doing so which is to demonstrate that the idea of timeless existence is both entirely unbiblical and totally irrational nonsense that cannot possibly be true. You want to not debate it because you have no answer and don't wish to drop your belief in Aristotle's ideas about God.

And yes, there is an answer to the question of what God was doing! God was doing whatever He wanted to be doing. The three members of the Trinity were busy having a relationship with one another that there is no doubt was dynamic, vibrant, rich and in all ways righteous, loving and holy. That might not be as specific as you'd like but that doesn't make it false and the only reason we cannot be more specific than that is because we haven't been told any specifics by those who were there. You don't know with any specificity what God was doing yesterday. Care to debate whether He was growing tomatoes out of His elbows or wouldn't you be able to concede that He was not based on nothing more than your own intuition?

As to whether we humans are capable of comprehending eternity is mostly irrelevant. The concept itself is not at all difficult to understand. Eternity is an infinite amount of time. That is to say that that's what the bible is talking about whenever the term is used. In many theological circles the term 'eternity' has been made to mean "timelessness" which, as I have already established, is incomprehensible because it is self-contradictory nonsense. So there are two senses in which we human are incapable of comprehending the idea of eternity. First, we cannot quite grasp what an infinite span of time is and secondly, the irrational cannot be comprehended, by definition. In either case, the aspects of eternity that cannot be comprehended do not undermine our ability to discuss the issue with clarity and with meaning. Nor is it so far out of our grasp that we cannot determine when we are being taught an unbiblical falsehood that aught not have any part in our doctrine, much less our theology proper (theology of God).

The bottom line is that there is a great deal that we can know about God's existence. We can know what we are taught in scripture along with that which can be deduced by means of sound reason. As such we can know that God has always existed and we can know that timeless existence is a fantasy.

Clete
 

Clete

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Interestingly, I gave the same argument. Time is a property only of a physical universe. God is relational, as per ozos concern, to time thus involved with it, but it is essential that we see God as not constrained in any way, by containers. Time measured physical change and duration.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Lon (and Marke)!

Here's goes your doctrine up in smoke....

Ready?



Was God relational before He created time?




How can anyone cling to doctrines that are so easily crushed into powder?
 

marke

Well-known member
Now you say we can't know? Weren't you the one that told me that God knows the end from the beginning because He is the end and the beginning? Now you want to plead ignorance because I have in fact debated it and shown you the point of doing so which is to demonstrate that the idea of timeless existence is both entirely unbiblical and totally irrational nonsense that cannot possibly be true. You want to not debate it because you have no answer and don't wish to drop your belief in Aristotle's ideas about God.

And yes, there is an answer to the question of what God was doing! God was doing whatever He wanted to be doing. The three members of the Trinity were busy having a relationship with one another that there is no doubt was dynamic, vibrant, rich and in all ways righteous, loving and holy. That might not be as specific as you'd like but that doesn't make it false and the only reason we cannot be more specific than that is because we haven't been told any specifics by those who were there. You don't know with any specificity what God was doing yesterday. Care to debate whether He was growing tomatoes out of His elbows or wouldn't you be able to concede that He was not based on nothing more than your own intuition?

As to whether we humans are capable of comprehending eternity is mostly irrelevant. The concept itself is not at all difficult to understand. Eternity is an infinite amount of time. That is to say that that's what the bible is talking about whenever the term is used. In many theological circles the term 'eternity' has been made to mean "timelessness" which, as I have already established, is incomprehensible because it is self-contradictory nonsense. So there are two senses in which we human are incapable of comprehending the idea of eternity. First, we cannot quite grasp what an infinite span of time is and secondly, the irrational cannot be comprehended, by definition. In either case, the aspects of eternity that cannot be comprehended do not undermine our ability to discuss the issue with clarity and with meaning. Nor is it so far out of our grasp that we cannot determine when we are being taught an unbiblical falsehood that aught not have any part in our doctrine, much less our theology proper (theology of God).

The bottom line is that there is a great deal that we can know about God's existence. We can know what we are taught in scripture along with that which can be deduced by means of sound reason. As such we can know that God has always existed and we can know that timeless existence is a fantasy.

Clete
If God was satisfied communing with Himself for trillions of trillions of years before He created the heaven and the earth, then what caused Him to finally take an interest in fellowshipping with humans?
 

Lon

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From you pov, do you think God entered time, and if so, when did He create it? Do you believe that God literally said “Let there be light”, if so, how would you define the duration between "let" and "light"?
Yes, when He created. If by 'time' you mean 'doing something' I'd acquiesce that aspect of time, God wasn't sitting unmoving in a void. For us, however, our grasp of time is very much tied to our physical perceptions. Even in heaven from Revelation, there is a throne, people around Jesus worshipping the Lamb and Father etc. What we do have also shows us a future happening that John, from 90 A.D. witnessed and interacted in as actual future events perhaps in 3020 A.D. As far as I grasp that, it seems to have to mean that God traverses time and it cannot be seen as a constraint as He and His messengers are able to traverse it.

"Eternity past" is a concept by definition that says "His past is still going" as the only meaningful way to describe it. I've entertained your and other Open Theist's suggestions, ideas, postulations. To date, I'll keep entertaining them but they don't seem to fit or give meaning to Revelation or other passages of scripture where time isn't expressed as a restraint. It certainly breaks at least 'my' grasp, understanding, and restraint of time. Thanks for taking the time. -Lon
 

JudgeRightly

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If God was satisfied communing with Himself for trillions of trillions of years before He created the heaven and the earth, then what caused Him to finally take an interest in fellowshipping with humans?

Simply because He can do new things.

A timeless God cannot do that.
 

JudgeRightly

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There has never failed a single word of all God has said and there never will be such a failure. Here are just a few verses about that:
Joshua 21:45
Joshua 23:14
1 Kings 8:56

Have you never read the book of Jonah?

God told Jonah that Nineveh was going to be destroyed in 40 days. That was a very specific prophecy. 40 days later, and no destruction came upon Nineveh.

Prophecy failed. Yet God wasn't lying when He said it would be destroyed.

How do you explain it, without resorting to claiming (and rightfully so) that it was destroyed later? Yet that later destruction isn't what God prophesied.
 

Clete

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If God was satisfied communing with Himself for trillions of trillions of years before He created the heaven and the earth, then what caused Him to finally take an interest in fellowshipping with humans?
That is question you'll have to ask God. There are many possibilities but the only One Who would know the answer hasn't chosen to share that information with us so anything we might say would be speculation.
 

marke

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Have you never read the book of Jonah?

God told Jonah that Nineveh was going to be destroyed in 40 days. That was a very specific prophecy. 40 days later, and no destruction came upon Nineveh.

Prophecy failed. Yet God wasn't lying when He said it would be destroyed.

How do you explain it, without resorting to claiming (and rightfully so) that it was destroyed later? Yet that later destruction isn't what God prophesied.
According to Jeremiah 18, God is willing to repent of the evil He has thought and promised to do to a nation if that nation repents of their evil and turns to God for mercy. That is not failed prophecy, that is reasonable expectation of mercy should God so decide to show it.
 

marke

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What about what it means for what God knows about what He Himself will do in the future?

If we apply the logic to God, rather than men, what would that imply?

For example, if T were that on December 25th, 2021, God would launch an asteroid at the earth...

In other words, take man out of the equation.
Those whom the Lord foreknows He also predestinates to be conformed to the image of Christ. If God cannot tell the future unless He pre-ordains it - does that mean those who think God cannot tell the future unless He fore-ordains it agree that God must pre-determine who will be born and get saved and who will not?
 

marke

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The verses that tell us what we know about this situation are in Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth.
and
7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Please consider
that the 'tossing down' of v4 is the same word as 'to be hurled', v9 which would share the aspect of a violent and hostile 'casting away' of the 1/3 of the angels and then, later, Satan and the demons were cast down. IF the angels Satan cast to earth were also Satanic and fallen into the unforgivable sin and so were also demonic, why would Satan cast them away in a fury before his great war with Michael and the holy angels? Is it not more reasonable that he cast them away as useless to him (as implied in the words) even though the indication was that they were sinners he had seduced? Is this not reminiscent of the fact that the sinful elect, the sinful good seed, must live with the demonic tares until the time of the harvest, ie, the time of the maturity of the good seed in holiness?

If we can see that these 1/3 of angels were tossed down as sinful but elect angels who rebelled against GOD's call for the judgment of the Satanic, we do not have to think that 1/3 of all creation was sent to hell since we know that one sinner can corrupt thousands with his lies, but no sinful elect, corrupted by Satan, will ever face judgement because election is the promise of salvation: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, (even though they have rebelled) but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Where was Jesus when He said He saw Satan cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18), and when did that occur in time? If in the past, was Jesus there? If in the future, was Jesus there?
 
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marke

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God "DECLARES the end from the beginning"

Is what the verse actually says.

Not "predicts." Not "is."

Declares.

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:9-10&version=NKJV

That's a huge difference.







God is not the author of confusion.

The confusion arises because the position is inherently illogical.



The verse you are attempting to reference says nothing of the sort.

In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with time, except to say that God is patient and longsuffering, whereas a man could only wait a day, God can wait a thousand years, and powerful enough to accomplish in a day what man cannot do in a thousand years.

Remember, it says "is AS", not simply "is."
Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13). Or else, the book of life contains the names of the elect from the foundation of the world. In any case, we are talking about people who lived thousands of years after Adam who are mentioned by name before Adam was created. Have I understood that right?
 

JudgeRightly

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Those whom the Lord foreknows He also predestinates to be conformed to the image of Christ. If God cannot tell the future unless He pre-ordains it - does that mean those who think God cannot tell the future unless He fore-ordains it agree that God must pre-determine who will be born and get saved and who will not?

Sorry, I'm an Open Theist. I don't believe that God "saw the future" or "predestines everything."

I believe God predetermines some things, and is omnicompetent to bring those things to pass, in spite of the things man does.
 

marke

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Sorry, I'm an Open Theist. I don't believe that God "saw the future" or "predestines everything."

I believe God predetermines some things, and is omnicompetent to bring those things to pass, in spite of the things man does.
I may not agree with you entirely because I have some lingering questions as to how that interpretation may address issues not yet discussed. But I certainly believe you are closer to the absolute truth, if not altogether at one with the truth, than are those who misunderstand what the Bible teaches about God's love for sinners and desire that none of them should perish.
 

ttruscott

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Where was Jesus when He said He saw Satan cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18), and when did that occur in time? If in the past, was Jesus there? If in the future, was Jesus there?
ImCo,
of course He was there, we all were - He as our creator and we as ALL of His creation. We all experienced making the choice to put our faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and that the Son was the only solution to sinfulness or put our faith in the idea that HE was a liar and a false god. Then we all experienced seeing the creation of the physical universe and the consequence of sin by our being flung to the earth.
 

marke

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ImCo,
of course He was there, we all were - He as our creator and we as ALL of His creation. We all experienced making the choice to put our faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and that the Son was the only solution to sinfulness or put our faith in the idea that HE was a liar and a false god. Then we all experienced seeing the creation of the physical universe and the consequence of sin by our being flung to the earth.
So you can say you saw Satan cast out of heaven because that is what you saw?
 
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JudgeRightly

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marke

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An infinite amount of time.

If you have troubles understanding that, I recommend reading this section of an article on God being outside of time, which deals with how God crossed an infinity:

(The above is a link to a specific point of the article found at https://kgov.com/time)
I hardly think anyone needs an interpreter or an instructor to demonstrate the fact that it is impossible for humans to comprehend what was going on with God and for 'how long' in eternity past before the beginning of time.
 
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