Can a Christian lose their salvation

[Rodger]

Agreed. Faith itself is not meritorious.

In other words, to use a favorite analogy of mine from Dr. Leighton Flowers:

Letting go of the rope one is trying to climb to get to heaven is not the same as continuing to climb the rope, where climbing the rope would be work, and letting go of the rope is no works, but faith that Christ, the One who already climbed the rope, will carry that person to heaven.

Letting go of the rope is not continuing to climb the rope.

Agreed!

Dr. Flowers is a really outstanding Christian !

 

[Hoping]

There, you are agreeing with me that the Bible gives no reason to think the Corinthian adulterer was never a Christian. You are admitting that a person converted to Christ can commit adultery, and thereby contradicting your claim that a person converted to Christ cannot sin.

I can understand your confusion, seeing as you believe the converted still commit sin.
The Corinthian may have appeared as though he was converted, but his actions betrayed him.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bear the devil's fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
(1 John 3-9)

 

[Hoping]

But you said the fact that having faith is a choice debars one's having faith from being a gift from God; so why are you not consistent with yourself by also saying the fact that repenting is a choice debars one's repenting from being a gift from God? Why do you despise logic so venomously? Your war against logic manifests that you are a fool.

God offers us the ability to have faith, and the ability to turn permanently from sin.

 

[Hoping]

What "all comes down to" what "same thing"? What you wrote, there, is yet another vacuous non-answer. Repenting and opportunity to repent are, in fact, not the same thing; they are two, different things.

As I wrote before, "God provided the means of our conversion and salvation."
He provided it, but we must take up and use it for it to be of any benefit.

 

[Hoping]

No, he wasn't.
Herod (the one in Matthew 2:16-18), and Pharaoh, literally ordered the murder of countless innocent children.
Paul (formerly Saul), at worst (according to scripture), oversaw the murder of Stephen, and the persecution of others, and he destroyed (not "tried to destroy" as some translations render it (there's no "try" in the passage)) the church, but that doesn't make him the greatest sinner, not by a long shot.
Duh, because he was not yet saved by grace.

How many Christians did Paul cause to die ?
How many babies did Herod or Pharaoh cause to die ?
As neither of us have any real data, the point is moot.
Paul was the worst of the sinners Jesus died for, because he persecuted the church.
Though technically Jesus died for Herod too, Herod didn't accept the ransom for his soul.
If he had, then he would may of been the chief of sinners that Jesus died for.

 

[Hoping]

Nobody said that Paul was the first one "in Christ".
Paul was the first one in THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Paul said:
1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

That cannot be more clear. Paul is the PATTERN (and hence ... the FIRST).

It's weird that you don't think the "body of Christ" IS Christ .

 

[Hoping]

How many Scriptures do you need from God to validate what He said!

One.
Grace is the gift.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph 2:8)

If YOU muster up enough faith to believe in God then YOU are doing exactly what Ephesians 2:9-9 condemns........WORKS.

Paul only wrote against the works of the Law.
By effectually "outlawing" the right to choose to believe, you do a grave disservice to Christ Jesus.

You can repent, pray, be baptized every day, go to church every week, tithe your income but YOU are still a SINNER my friend!

If one is reborn of God's seed, how can he still bring forth the devil's fruit ? (1 John 3:9-10)

You have been compromized and deceived. Just to say that you do not sin IS IN FACT the sin of Pride!

My testimony is to the glorification of God and of all that Jesus came to accomplish.
He beat sin, and in Him we too can beat sin.
If saying "Jesus won" is pride, what is saying "Jesus lost" ?

 

[7djengo7]

I can understand your confusion, seeing as you believe the converted still commit sin.
The Corinthian may have appeared as though he was converted, but his actions betrayed him.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bear the devil's fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
(1 John 3-9)

What you wrote, there, is just you parroting (almost verbatim) the same stupidies you've posted numerous times in this thread, troll. Once again, you Christ-hating sinner, it is you merely spamming me with noise instead of reading and responding rationally to what I have written.

 

[7djengo7]

God offers us the ability to have faith, and the ability to turn permanently from sin.

To what question is that mindless babbling supposed to be an answer, troll?

 

[Hoping]

Your contention that ALL MEN SINNED does not apply because Jesus did not sin actually show the shallowness of your thinking.

The proof is in the words.
What Paul cited in his condemnation of the Law keeping Jews was written long before Jesus walked the earth.

Jesus did Not sin as a man because He was the God-Man. He had NO sin nature so He was unable to sin. Please brother, do a litlle study!!!

Jesus was hampered by everything we are facing today.
Plus, He was tortured and killed, and still didn't sin.

The Revelation can not be used to base any church doctrine because the Church is not in view. Everything in Revelation concerns Israel and the nations. The Tribulation is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” and God’s judgment of the nations.

As the Gentiles have been made one with the Jewish believers, it is folly to disassociate ourselves from what is written.
Don't go the way Peter did when the Jews visited Antioch.

Paul wrote the Church, the body is Christ, would not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2.1-15; Romans 5.9; Ephesians 5:6 & Colossians 3:6.

The wrath of God spoken of in those verses is the wrath brought with the judgement.
A lake of fire for the wicked.
Don't you think there will still be believers on earth on the last day ?
Jesus wondered if He would find faith on earth on that day.
So he didn't rule it out.

Therefore, no Church language or evidence of the Church is present in Revelation so there can not be any church doctrine found in the book.

Our opinions differ.

 

[7djengo7]

As I wrote before,

you're a mechanically repetitive retard who cannot address anything anyone has written against your heretical stupidity.

 

[Hoping]

No Sir.

The "Old Man" or the Sin Nature is never destroyed. It will be with you until the day you die.

Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Also..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
I "died" with Christ.
I was also "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

Also........Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
Also........Every single person who accepts Christ as Saviour receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of repentance.
All you are doing is quoting Charismatic Pentecostal false teachings!

Our opinions differ.

 

[7djengo7]

Our opinions differ.

"And Joshua rose up early in the morning, and numbered the people, and went up, he and the elders of Israel, before the people to Ai." (Joshua 8:10)

 

[Hoping]

you're a mechanically repetitive retard who cannot address anything anyone has written against your heretical stupidity.

"God provided the means of our conversion and salvation."

 

[7djengo7]

Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Also..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
I "died" with Christ.
I was also "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

The author of Job wrote: "Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?" (Job 41:5)

 

[7djengo7]

"God provided the means of our conversion and salvation."

"And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle." (Revelation 14:17)

 

[7djengo7]

The proof is in the words.

"And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:" (John 12:20)

 

[Rodger]

Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Also..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
I "died" with Christ.
I was also "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

Our opinions differ.

I have NO opinions my friend!

I am a Bible Literalist!!!

Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Also..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
I "died" with Christ.
I was also "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

Our opinions differ.

My dear friend..........I have NO opinions!

I am a Bible Literalist!

You are approaching everything from the perspective of your Pentacostal teaching and background. I am approaching everything from a Biblical perspective.

We don’t lose our sin nature once we receive Christ. The Bible says that sin remains in us and that a struggle with that old nature will continue as long as we are in this world.

It is impossible for the old sin nature to be reformed or cleansed. Our old sinful self can never be made righteous and so God, in His grace, gave us a new nature - a new life - the resurrected life of Christ which He imputed to us by faith at the point of salvation. When we were saved we were not only given the indwelling Holy Spirit of God to guide us but also a new, born-again life to be guided by Him. At salvation, we received Christ's resurrected life, which gives us the opportunity to draw on His sufficient power, for without Him our old nature can do nothing, but in Him our new life can do all things for He is the power of God, from Whom our strength is drawn.

Now.........IF we did not have a sin nature then we would not be able to sin. THAT is exactly what you have been taught. However, if that is true, then all of the Scriptures that say we are sinners, rotten dirty rags in the sight of God will have to be removed from the Bible.

 

[Rodger]

The proof is in the words.
What Paul cited in his condemnation of the Law keeping Jews was written long before Jesus walked the earth.

Jesus was hampered by everything we are facing today.
Plus, He was tortured and killed, and still didn't sin.

As the Gentiles have been made one with the Jewish believers, it is folly to disassociate ourselves from what is written.
Don't go the way Peter did when the Jews visited Antioch.

The wrath of God spoken of in those verses is the wrath brought with the judgement.
A lake of fire for the wicked.
Don't you think there will still be believers on earth on the last day ?
Jesus wondered if He would find faith on earth on that day.
So he didn't rule it out.

Our opinions differ.

I have NO opinions!!!!

You are wrong my brother. Paul wrote all of his letters 25 years after Jesus walked on the Earth.

2nd.....Paul did not condmn the Jews for trying to keep the Law, instead He writes that the law speaks to those under the law. And what does it say? It says, "You can't keep the law." This was the conclusion supported by Paul's prior references to the Old Testament: .....
that nobody lives a life of "righteousness" in comparison to the standards of God. = Rom 3:23 in that "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God!

In other words, Moses' law, God's gift to Israel, does not provide any protection from God's eternal judgment for human sin. Not for Jews, nor for Gentiles. Instead, the law reveals just how much we humans sin. It forces us to agree with God that we deserve His anger because we now understand all of the ways in which we have sinned against Him.

Now you are correct! Jesus was tortured, beaten, tempted and died. But He did not sin! THat is because He was the God-Man and had NO sin nature!

Then you asked..............
"The wrath of God spoken of in those verses is the wrath brought with the judgement."
A lake of fire for the wicked."

Again you are correct. SIN will bring the wrath of God upon all who reject Jesus as the Lord.

Then you asked........
"Don't you think there will still be believers on earth on the last day ?"

Congratulation! Yes there will be. However, this is a YES and a NO answer. Immediately after the rapture, there will not be any Christians on the earth because all Christians will have been removed. that is, after the rapture there will not be any Christians be on the earth.
After the rapture, some non-believers will become Christians. The book of Revelation reveals that God will send the 144,000 witnesses (Revelation 7:4-8), the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1-10) and an angel to preach the gospel (Revelation 14:6) about Jesus Christ. The world will be called to repent but the vast majority will refuse and instead curse God (Revelation 16:21). Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-17 reveal that some people will become Christians in the tribulation. Yet, many of these Christians will die (Revelation 20:4). To become a Christian means almost certain death. Therefore, after the rapture, will there be Christians be on the earth? The answer is yes! The whole thesis of the Tribulation Period is God dealing with the nation of Israel, so the next revival in the Last Days will be from the Jews who have not heard the gospel and Gentiles of the same thought.

Then you asked........
"Jesus wondered if He would find faith on earth on that day."

What He is saying is to be seen that very few will have the strength of faith that Jesus is talking about.

Matthew 7:21-23 is about as clear as it can possible be...............
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Again........thanks for asking and giving me the opportunity to get out the Word of God!

 

[Rodger]

One.
Grace is the gift.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph 2:8)

Paul only wrote against the works of the Law.
By effectually "outlawing" the right to choose to believe, you do a grave disservice to Christ Jesus.

If one is reborn of God's seed, how can he still bring forth the devil's fruit ? (1 John 3:9-10)

My testimony is to the glorification of God and of all that Jesus came to accomplish.
He beat sin, and in Him we too can beat sin.
If saying "Jesus won" is pride, what is saying "Jesus lost" ?

Wrong again. I hate to keeping having to correct you. I really do.

1st.......Paul was proclaiming the truth of God’s Word to the Church of Rome, and he was telling them what happens when a person deliberately lives in sin and refuses to accept the truth of God’s Word (Romans 1:18-32). The people Paul was referring to had committed a myriad of sinful acts and were condoning those who practiced these sinful actions. Paul condemns SIN many, many times.

You said.........
"By effectually "outlawing" the right to choose to believe, you do a grave disservice to Christ Jesus."

WRONG! I never ever said such a thing. The freedom of choice goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. Come on brother, lets get what we say correct before we say it.

You asked...........
"If one is reborn of God's seed, how can he still bring forth the devil's fruit ? (1 John 3:9-10)"

I am amazed at how the Pentacostal denomination has warped the Scripture and your understanding. God bless you my friend and I hope that our conversations will encourage to begin to do some real Bible study!

My dear friend, Grace is a not a license to sin. Those who sin without remorse, knowingly sin, no conviction, or change have no relationship with Christ whatsoever. But even a saved Christian has to choose good over evil.

In this verse, 1st John 3:9-10 that you posted, the emphasis is on the one "born of God." God lives in the believer and the believer can therefore no longer live the same life as prior to becoming God's child. Though believers continue to sin, they will be changed more into the likeness of Christ. God's children are expected to reflect his characteristics to some degree. Again, the emphasis is not on perfection, but likeness. An unchanged person is not a true believer. A true believer cannot help but live differently because God lives within them.