Rolf Ernst
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God is Truth--Okay, as they say--whatever, wherever
2 Pet. 3:9 Defeats the Arminian/Open Theist view of Scripture
- Thread starter Rolf Ernst
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Did you read my post? Here I'll quote what I said concerning the passage in question...
Perhaps this was a bit too cryptic for you so I'll spell it out in simpler language...
2 Peter 3:9 means precisely what is seems to mean by a simple reading of the text. Any home schooled third grader could understand it. If you don't believe me, ask one. He'll definitely come closer to getting it than you have.
Your having turned this passage completely upside down does nothing but damage to your position that "The only view of Scripture which is in full accord with this text is the Reformed (Calvinistic) view." If this were so, then such theological hoop jumping would not be necessary. The fact that Calvinism has problems with such simple and clear passages of scripture as 2 Peter 3:9 is proof positive that Calvinism is seriously flawed.
You say that you want me to provide scripture in my argument! Fine, but just remember, you asked for it!
Luke 7:30 “30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”
Jeremiah 19:5 “5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I (God) commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry (Lit. repented) that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free
I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite
Jer. 15:6 - You have forsaken me and turned your back on me," says the LORD. "Therefore, I will raise my clenched fists to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.
Jer. 18:8, 10 - and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I (God) will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I (God) will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.
Jer 26:3 It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.
Jer 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I (God) repent of the evil which I did to you.
Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.
Amo 7:3 The LORD repented concerning this; "It shall not be," said the LORD
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Resting in Him,
Clete
Ahem, you are an idiot!
Luke 16:22 - 31 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Numbers 16:30 "But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that [was] under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods. 33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that [were] round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up [also].
That’s just two of quite a large number of passages in the Bible that very clearly indicate that people are set to hell.
And one other thing; God could have killed both Adam and Eve right on the spot for having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In His mercy, He did not. You attribute to God only 5% of the population, I tend to be a bit more optimistic than that but the point is that even 1 is better than none and I firmly believe that God would have made provision for the salvation of even 1 single person, never mind 5% of the population of the planet which is already a number north of 300 million people!
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Ralf – Post 1 of 2
You said
In my next post, I affirmed the literal meaning of 2Pet 3:9 primarily by showing the other very clear use of the word S’s#5562 “(to) make/have room”, which soundly denies the closed view because
it’s God’s will that none perish (= everlasting damnation),
and that “all” “make room for repentance”, (= have everlasting life)
:thumb:
no one is left out of God’s will for salvation in this double stated affirmation thus greatly emphasized idea against limited atonement because it holds that God purposes that only the few get saved.
Here is a verse that supports my reasoning that it should not be “come to” “make room for” The English words could contain is the same word as “come to” in 2Pet 3.9.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
Using the translation idea in 2Pet 3.9 from the KJV and it’s many followers, would render the following idea in John 21.25
“... I suppose that even the world itself should not come to the books ... (!!!)
“... I suppose that not even the world itself should come to the books ... (!!!)
So Jeremy and myself are right that 2Pet 3.9 teaches that it’s God’s will that everyone have room for repentance.
We are not Arminian, such gross falsification helps no one at all, and you’ve been told this and shown why it is wrong, so for your refusal to stand corrected in the face of the truth of the matter, you show yourself to be unnecessarily offensive and willing to purposefully falsify others.
“My usual evasions”.
Keep this up and you will be purposefully ignored for the sake of avoiding so much falsification. The fact is that I am an extremely thorough and non-evasive poster. I admit to overlooking some posts, I do not respond to all posts, occasionally some posts are not worth the time and effort, etc.
You said
You must mean my first post only. I admit that I was focusing on Clete’s post and not yours. I’m posting more about your stuff as we go along.
In my next post, I affirmed the literal meaning of 2Pet 3:9 primarily by showing the other very clear use of the word S’s#5562 “(to) make/have room”, which soundly denies the closed view because
it’s God’s will that none perish (= everlasting damnation),
and that “all” “make room for repentance”, (= have everlasting life)
:thumb:
no one is left out of God’s will for salvation in this double stated affirmation thus greatly emphasized idea against limited atonement because it holds that God purposes that only the few get saved.
Here is a verse that supports my reasoning that it should not be “come to” “make room for” The English words could contain is the same word as “come to” in 2Pet 3.9.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
Using the translation idea in 2Pet 3.9 from the KJV and it’s many followers, would render the following idea in John 21.25
“... I suppose that even the world itself should not come to the books ... (!!!)
“... I suppose that not even the world itself should come to the books ... (!!!)
So Jeremy and myself are right that 2Pet 3.9 teaches that it’s God’s will that everyone have room for repentance.
We are not Arminian, such gross falsification helps no one at all, and you’ve been told this and shown why it is wrong, so for your refusal to stand corrected in the face of the truth of the matter, you show yourself to be unnecessarily offensive and willing to purposefully falsify others.
“My usual evasions”.
Keep this up and you will be purposefully ignored for the sake of avoiding so much falsification. The fact is that I am an extremely thorough and non-evasive poster. I admit to overlooking some posts, I do not respond to all posts, occasionally some posts are not worth the time and effort, etc.
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Ralf – Post 2 of 2
Ok, as to your first post, you said
(1) It is true that Peter deals with one particular problem but not in a vacuum. Here is the contextual development.
(2) Not true and this false concept destroys the central aspect of your thesis. The fact is that there is no reason given for why God has not returned. The argumentation flows as follows.
1-2 pay attention to God’s counsel
3-4 false counsel is unrighteousness, Christ’s second coming is scoffed at
5-7 since the flood, the heavens and earth have been preserved for the day of judgment
8 God is not forgetful, He has a supernatural intellect
9 The Lord terry’s and is longsuffering "as demonstrated" by His will that all get saved, not He terry’s "because" He desires that more become saved
10 but the day of the Lord will come ... do not be deceived
More to the point, in v.9, it’s
9a – God is not unfaithful, he is longsuffering – 9b – He desires that all become saved
So 9b is not as you said, the reason He has not yet returned, it is an example of His “longsuffering”
(3) We don’t agree that God is delaying “because” He desires that “all become saved”. That is not only inaccurate, it is simply not provided by scripture. What was provided by scripture was “an example” of God’s longsuffering toward us, which is true and makes no support for your errant views and straw man thesis.
5% may be more conservative that many estimates. I’d say more like 10-20% or so, yet 5% is much closer than many liberals and ungodly would like to think.
Ok, as to your first post, you said
(1) It is true that Peter deals with one particular problem but not in a vacuum. Here is the contextual development.
The larger more comprehensive point is not about dealing with scoffers, the overarching point is to remain in focus on God’s word and His teachings. Evidently they were getting off focus and spending too much time dealing with other things.
(2) Not true and this false concept destroys the central aspect of your thesis. The fact is that there is no reason given for why God has not returned. The argumentation flows as follows.
1-2 pay attention to God’s counsel
3-4 false counsel is unrighteousness, Christ’s second coming is scoffed at
5-7 since the flood, the heavens and earth have been preserved for the day of judgment
8 God is not forgetful, He has a supernatural intellect
9 The Lord terry’s and is longsuffering "as demonstrated" by His will that all get saved, not He terry’s "because" He desires that more become saved
10 but the day of the Lord will come ... do not be deceived
More to the point, in v.9, it’s
9a – God is not unfaithful, he is longsuffering – 9b – He desires that all become saved
So 9b is not as you said, the reason He has not yet returned, it is an example of His “longsuffering”
(3) We don’t agree that God is delaying “because” He desires that “all become saved”. That is not only inaccurate, it is simply not provided by scripture. What was provided by scripture was “an example” of God’s longsuffering toward us, which is true and makes no support for your errant views and straw man thesis.
5% may be more conservative that many estimates. I’d say more like 10-20% or so, yet 5% is much closer than many liberals and ungodly would like to think.
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Peace clete P
But clete, you JUST FINISHED posting that ALL SINS are forgiven of MANkind and that JESUS is The Saviour of The World.
Now you fall immediately into denial.
A simple understanding for you clete. The RICH MAN had NO NAME. There is a reason for this. You see the RICH MAN possessed the flesh body of Lazarus. This is known as SIN indwelling and EVIL present with ALL people (Romans 7:17,20,21 and others)
In all the WORD there is not a SINGLE INSTANCE of a NAMED PERSON going to BE BURNED IN FIRE FOREVER.
When Lazarus died he was SEPARATED from the "rich man" or SIN that possessed him. (Romans 6:7)
You see that is why JESUS is THE WORLDS Saviour, get it??? I doubt it.
God often separates His Children from what they are bound with. Death is rather enjoyable to God in this sense.
Hey clete, it's more like that little voice in your head 'cause God's Word sure does not present that. Men MISTAKE the punishment meant for the devil and his messengers for MANkind. This does not hold scriptural water.
Adam was God's son. I think God has NOTHING but the BEST intentions for His Own Children.
The reality is you see DEATH TO OTHERS in your own heart because that is what is IN YOU. The Word reveals these things.
I'm sorry that you serve such a pathetic looser clete. Good thing YOU made the LUCKY CHOICE and SELF atoned for yourself.
You're no different than MOST of Jesus' supposed followers. You damn others to BURN FOREVER for what is ALSO IN YOU.
go figure....
I see you as another casualty of war. My postings here are like a visit to the hospital. Sick people you guys are.
enjoy!
smaller
But clete, you JUST FINISHED posting that ALL SINS are forgiven of MANkind and that JESUS is The Saviour of The World.
Now you fall immediately into denial.
A simple understanding for you clete. The RICH MAN had NO NAME. There is a reason for this. You see the RICH MAN possessed the flesh body of Lazarus. This is known as SIN indwelling and EVIL present with ALL people (Romans 7:17,20,21 and others)
In all the WORD there is not a SINGLE INSTANCE of a NAMED PERSON going to BE BURNED IN FIRE FOREVER.
When Lazarus died he was SEPARATED from the "rich man" or SIN that possessed him. (Romans 6:7)
You see that is why JESUS is THE WORLDS Saviour, get it??? I doubt it.
God often separates His Children from what they are bound with. Death is rather enjoyable to God in this sense.
Hey clete, it's more like that little voice in your head 'cause God's Word sure does not present that. Men MISTAKE the punishment meant for the devil and his messengers for MANkind. This does not hold scriptural water.
Adam was God's son. I think God has NOTHING but the BEST intentions for His Own Children.
The reality is you see DEATH TO OTHERS in your own heart because that is what is IN YOU. The Word reveals these things.
I'm sorry that you serve such a pathetic looser clete. Good thing YOU made the LUCKY CHOICE and SELF atoned for yourself.
You're no different than MOST of Jesus' supposed followers. You damn others to BURN FOREVER for what is ALSO IN YOU.
go figure....
I see you as another casualty of war. My postings here are like a visit to the hospital. Sick people you guys are.
enjoy!
smaller
If you are right, they are also a waste of time. What is the point in convinving people that they are wrong if they are going to be saved anyway, regardless of what they believe or do? Your arguments are self defeating and rediculous!
Why do you even call yourself a Christian in the first place?
Do you even believe that Jesus is God?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Swordsman
New member
Then how come you don't understand it?
And I thought Howard Dean was a horrible debator.....
Oh Father Clete, please give us your holy word. Amen.
What is your point here?
I think we have gone over this verse before. Mind translated in the Greek means Heart. Their sin did not enter the intention of God's heart. His mind never changes.
God was grieved because man had fallen into sin. This verse isn't proof text to back up open theism. I thought most open theists believed God knew man would and will sin. I don't see the argument with this passage.
If you read the verses all around this passage you will see it is Moses interceding for the Israelites for God not to destroy them. Please tell me you believe God knew the hearts of his people and the leader Moses (whom God raised up) and where this story was going. Moses was on Mt Sinai for a very long time, giving the people ample time to build an idol. God knew this was occuring before Moses did. You have to keep in the back of your mind the power of omniscience of God always. Never forget that.
The rest of these verses, I think I have already answered before. Clete, you cannot read the Bible like you read Oliver Twist or Cinderella. If God can possibly change His mind over the people He created, we are all in trouble. Throw eternal security right out the window. In other words, you just better not ever sin anymore.
That's ridiculous! Its called works-based salvation, and its what the Catholics practice.
Peace clete
Most "believers" when they actually HEAR the Good News, at first CANNOT ACCEPT it. It is TOO MUCH for them to bear.
This has NOTHING to do with me being right clete. God's Word is ALREADY THERE on the matter and THAT settles it.
God had a REASON to bound ALL people with "disobedience." This was a part of His Plan FROM THE BEGINNING. You can read about the "end result" of a portion of that in ROMANS 11:32, right after Paul gets done describing that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even the enemies of THE GOSPEL in vs. 26-30.
Well let's see:
"Jesus is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD."
clete: NO HE IS NOT!
"God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF"
clete: NO HE IS NOT!
Now WHO is contradictory here clete. BTW before you start posting DAMNATION texts, I believe ALL of them. Just not for PEOPLE.
Yes I do. Not the pathetic little worthless god you have made Him though eh? The one you serve is the one you carved out in your head. Your little god only saves you if you save yourself. Just like the rest of you idol worshippers.
enjoy!
smaller
Most "believers" when they actually HEAR the Good News, at first CANNOT ACCEPT it. It is TOO MUCH for them to bear.
This has NOTHING to do with me being right clete. God's Word is ALREADY THERE on the matter and THAT settles it.
God had a REASON to bound ALL people with "disobedience." This was a part of His Plan FROM THE BEGINNING. You can read about the "end result" of a portion of that in ROMANS 11:32, right after Paul gets done describing that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even the enemies of THE GOSPEL in vs. 26-30.
Well let's see:
"Jesus is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD."
clete: NO HE IS NOT!
"God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF"
clete: NO HE IS NOT!
Now WHO is contradictory here clete. BTW before you start posting DAMNATION texts, I believe ALL of them. Just not for PEOPLE.
Yes I do. Not the pathetic little worthless god you have made Him though eh? The one you serve is the one you carved out in your head. Your little god only saves you if you save yourself. Just like the rest of you idol worshippers.
enjoy!
smaller
Ephesians (book about Christ and the CHURCH). These verses talk about a general corporate election. It is not explicit that it refers to specific individuals by name from all eternity. God purposed to have a people. This collective group is made up of all who would eventually repent and believe.
Prov. 8 is a personification of wisdom (context) and has nothing to do with individual salvation.
Jer. 31 God's love for ISRAEL (context) is a high, deep, wide love that is everlasting. It is a Hebraism for God's endless love for the nation of Israel (not a proof text for individual election).
I Pet. 1:2 is a corporate election vs individual. Based on other verses, it is not a causative/irresistable election, but an intention to have a people for His name (whosoever believes in Him will be added to the corporate elect...it is not necessary to see this as an individual election).
Rolf Ernst
New member
FOR THOSE WHO THINK SOME TEXTS MILITATE AGAINST GOD'S IMMUTABILITY-----
Those instances in which it is said God repents--you must either believe that the Bible contradicts itself concerning God's immutability, or else dare believe (HORRORS!) that the fault is in a limit on your human understanding. But that is not at all likely to those who have a reservoir of hatred toward God and are spitefully unwilling to accept THAT possibility. They prefer to charge Him with error.
There are many instances in which God speaks on the level of man's thought processes--refers to Himself as if He were a man. You find anthropomorphisms throughout the Bible. God is a Spirit, but when speaking to man about His power, He speaks of Himself to men as if He were also a man, such as when speaking of the might of His power, He speaks of the power of His right hand. Hint: most men's greatest strength is in their right hand--get it??
When He speaks of a change in action toward certain of His creatures, it in no way shows an alteration in what He has eternally purposed, but if men were to do the new thing He is going to do concerning certain of His creatures, such actions in men would be the result of their changing their mind about an issue. The anthromophorism use by God in Scripture at such times is not the result of any change in God, but the result of the change of position the creature(s) now occupy before Him, such as when the wickedness of the antediluvians reached that point which was the end of God's longsuffering towards them, or as when the Ninevites properly responded to Jonah's preaching. In dealing with humans God speaks on their level for the sake of their comprhension. God did not alter His being in the least. The ninevites altered their conduct before Him and according to His many Biblical promises of mercy upon repentance, showed them mercy.
Those instances in which it is said God repents--you must either believe that the Bible contradicts itself concerning God's immutability, or else dare believe (HORRORS!) that the fault is in a limit on your human understanding. But that is not at all likely to those who have a reservoir of hatred toward God and are spitefully unwilling to accept THAT possibility. They prefer to charge Him with error.
There are many instances in which God speaks on the level of man's thought processes--refers to Himself as if He were a man. You find anthropomorphisms throughout the Bible. God is a Spirit, but when speaking to man about His power, He speaks of Himself to men as if He were also a man, such as when speaking of the might of His power, He speaks of the power of His right hand. Hint: most men's greatest strength is in their right hand--get it??
When He speaks of a change in action toward certain of His creatures, it in no way shows an alteration in what He has eternally purposed, but if men were to do the new thing He is going to do concerning certain of His creatures, such actions in men would be the result of their changing their mind about an issue. The anthromophorism use by God in Scripture at such times is not the result of any change in God, but the result of the change of position the creature(s) now occupy before Him, such as when the wickedness of the antediluvians reached that point which was the end of God's longsuffering towards them, or as when the Ninevites properly responded to Jonah's preaching. In dealing with humans God speaks on their level for the sake of their comprhension. God did not alter His being in the least. The ninevites altered their conduct before Him and according to His many Biblical promises of mercy upon repentance, showed them mercy.
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Rolf Ernst
New member
The above post is for you, Clete, and for 1Way. You people are not dealing with 2 Pet. 3:9 according to what it says.
Rolf Ernst
New member
1Way--you say that you are not an Arminian. Your use of scripture says you are. Maybe you don't know what an Arminian is. Can you define Arminian doctrine? If you can't, your complaint that you are not an Arminian is meaningless.
Did you read my post about God's immutability and your attempts to evade it? It is typical of Arminians that they don't mind holding views of Scripture which leave scripture texts in a contradictory tension with one another. You are very happy to do so in regard to God's immutability. Classic Arminianism!
Did you read my post about God's immutability and your attempts to evade it? It is typical of Arminians that they don't mind holding views of Scripture which leave scripture texts in a contradictory tension with one another. You are very happy to do so in regard to God's immutability. Classic Arminianism!
Rolf Ernst
New member
Billwald--you are missing the point altogether. 2 Pet. 3:9 proves that God gets PRECISELY what He wills--and it is not universalism. It is the salvation of ALL; All those, that is, whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world.
It is sad that so many are not able to distinguish between "all"
of a certain group or category and the universal "all." Their mind is blind to the use of all except as used to denote all universally. How deprived!
It is sad that so many are not able to distinguish between "all"
of a certain group or category and the universal "all." Their mind is blind to the use of all except as used to denote all universally. How deprived!
Rolf Ernst
New member
Godrulz-----------If it is not an individual election, as you say, why is it that each of their names were written down in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world? Is THAT NOT INDIVIDUAL? Is YOUR name individual, or is your name corporate?
See Rev. 13:8
See Rev. 13:8
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The other issue is the concept of 'immutability'. Is it the Calvinistic, pagan Greek philosophy influenced idea that God is absolutely unchanging in every possible sense; or is it the biblical revelation that God is unchanging in His eternal attributes and character, but is still changing in the sense of experiences, relationships, responses, etc. i.e. He is a dynamic, personal being with will (actions), intellect (thoughts), and emotions (feelings). These personal concepts require succession, sequence, duration or else we are left with a theological and philosophical absurdity ('eternal now' concept is not defensible...you cannot listen to a symphony in one second or it will be cacaphony...you cannot create the universe and incarnate and die on the cross and return for the second coming in one instant). An impersonal, impassible (not feeling), 'immutable' god is not the one revealed in the Word and Jesus (God in the flesh).
We uphold immutability, properly understood, and recognize anthopomorphisms (appropriately, but not at the expense of a literal revelation of God and His ways).
We uphold immutability, properly understood, and recognize anthopomorphisms (appropriately, but not at the expense of a literal revelation of God and His ways).
Swordsman
New member
It sounds to me like the open view provides all these exceptions to the rule. All that means is, is that God is limited. Right? Is that what you are saying godrulz? And since when is it "pagan" to believe that God is absolutely unchanging in every possible sense? Or is that just your label on it?
References please? These are just your opinions. And this is a theology forum. Need references (from Scripture, not some open theist author) to back up your opinions, if you can find any.
Then what does immutability mean to you then?