ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[docrob57]

I am very grateful to Theology on Line, because through it I recognized that I really didn't know much about theology (though I thought I did!). I have been studying theology for a little while now, and I realize that, although I had always thought of myself as somewhat of a Calvinist, I was an Arminian through and through. I believed in God's perfect foreknowledge, however, I really thought that "election" was a matter of God knowing who would make a free choice to accept him and who would choose to reject him, rather than that the whole thing was a matter of God's work. I know . . . my ignorance was abundant.

To this point, I am sure that all readers can agree with what I have said (if, in fact, there are readers). So this is where that changes. Through my studies, including renewed study of the Bible, I am convinced that unregenerated man is totally incapable of choosing God on his own. Unregenerated man has some freedom in that he is free to choose various forms of evil, but that's it. Accordingly, it must be true that it is God, the only One who is good, that is the ONLY one who is at work in our salvation. Since clearly we are not all saved, it must be the case that it is God who chooses who will be saved and who will not. Since we are incapable of good, the choices God makes in election must be independent of any inherent worthiness on our part (since there is none), and solely based on His own purposes.

So the bottom line is I am now willing to declare myself to be unreservedly Calvinist. In fact, I have even switched denomination from Southern Baptist to Reformed Presbyterian (PCA).

Again, I must express my gratitude to TOL for its part in leading me to a more serious study of theology, though I realize the end result is not pleasing to those in charge here.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I am very grateful to Theology on Line, because through it I recognized that I really didn't know much about theology (though I thought I did!). I have been studying theology for a little while now, and I realize that, although I had always thought of myself as somewhat of a Calvinist, I was an Arminian through and through. I believed in God's perfect foreknowledge, however, I really thought that "election" was a matter of God knowing who would make a free choice to accept him and who would choose to reject him, rather than that the whole thing was a matter of God's work. I know . . . my ignorance was abundant.

To this point, I am sure that all readers can agree with what I have said (if, in fact, there are readers). So this is where that changes. Through my studies, including renewed study of the Bible, I am convinced that unregenerated man is totally incapable of choosing God on his own. Unregenerated man has some freedom in that he is free to choose various forms of evil, but that's it. Accordingly, it must be true that it is God, the only One who is good, that is the ONLY one who is at work in our salvation. Since clearly we are not all saved, it must be the case that it is God who chooses who will be saved and who will not. Since we are incapable of good, the choices God makes in election must be independent of any inherent worthiness on our part (since there is none), and solely based on His own purposes.

So the bottom line is I am now willing to declare myself to be unreservedly Calvinist. In fact, I have even switched denomination from Southern Baptist to Reformed Presbyterian (PCA).

Again, I must express my gratitude to TOL for its part in leading me to a more serious study of theology, though I realize the end result is not pleasing to those in charge here.

That's a really tragic admission.

There is hope for all people (not just the arbitrarily pre-selected lucky few). God's work on the cross was big enough for all men.

Minimizing that work is a slap in God's face, you should be ashamed and tell God you are sorry for what you have just said.

The five points of Calvinism (TULIP) ~ debunked.

T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son,but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I - Irresistible Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
​

By the way...
Your thread title is in error (based on your theology). You should re-title it... "I can't find my own way".

 

[Evee]

Wow docrob57 isn't this a step backward?

 

[docrob57]

That's a really tragic admission.

There is hope for all people (not just the arbitrarily pre-selected lucky few). God's work on the cross was big enough for all men.

Minimizing that work is a slap in God's face, you should be ashamed and tell God you are sorry for what you have just said.

The five points of Calvinism (TULIP) ~ debunked.

T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son,but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I - Irresistible Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
​

By the way...
Your thread title is in error (based on your theology). You should re-title it... "I can't find my own way".

Time permitting I will try to respond fully to your post later. First I agree, "I can't find my own way" would be a much better title. The problem with all other views than the Calvinist (which, of course, was also the view of Luther, Zwingli and the other reformers) insists that we must have some control over the process. This seems a natural, though ultimately ungodly, impulse. If we in fact choose God from our free will, then those making this choice might clearly claim some innate superiority over those who reject God, and this is clearly antithetical to Christian thought.

I have to say that the "T" in TULIP is for "total depravity," the idea that man, due to original sin, is so divorced from godliness that he is incapable of choosing God on his own. Again, due to our own pride, we would like to think that this isn't the case, but the Bible is very firm of the point.

As to slaps in God's face, the open view clearly qualifies. Sad as I am to say it, I am afraid that it does veer far enough away from orthodoxy to be considered heresy.

 

[allsmiles]

docrob57, good to see you again. I've found that most critics of Calvinism base their criticism on simple misunderstandings. It's not so much a misunderstanding of Calvinism as it is a misunderstanding of the Bible itself.

The sovereignty of God is a good place to start when explaining the Bible to OVers and such. Pink has written at length on the subject and of course there's always Luther and Calvin that you can fall back on as well as more modern work by Boettner.

While I do not believe in a settled future I do believe that the most coherent message throughout the course of the Bible is the Calvinist interpretation, but of course Christian theology often consists of scripture versus scripture so I wish you the best of luck when tangling with the OVers around here.

 

[The Berean]

I am very grateful to Theology on Line, because through it I recognized that I really didn't know much about theology (though I thought I did!). I have been studying theology for a little while now, and I realize that, although I had always thought of myself as somewhat of a Calvinist, I was an Arminian through and through. I believed in God's perfect foreknowledge, however, I really thought that "election" was a matter of God knowing who would make a free choice to accept him and who would choose to reject him, rather than that the whole thing was a matter of God's work. I know . . . my ignorance was abundant.

To this point, I am sure that all readers can agree with what I have said (if, in fact, there are readers). So this is where that changes. Through my studies, including renewed study of the Bible, I am convinced that unregenerated man is totally incapable of choosing God on his own. Unregenerated man has some freedom in that he is free to choose various forms of evil, but that's it. Accordingly, it must be true that it is God, the only One who is good, that is the ONLY one who is at work in our salvation. Since clearly we are not all saved, it must be the case that it is God who chooses who will be saved and who will not. Since we are incapable of good, the choices God makes in election must be independent of any inherent worthiness on our part (since there is none), and solely based on His own purposes.

So the bottom line is I am now willing to declare myself to be unreservedly Calvinist. In fact, I have even switched denomination from Southern Baptist to Reformed Presbyterian (PCA).

Again, I must express my gratitude to TOL for its part in leading me to a more serious study of theology, though I realize the end result is not pleasing to those in charge here.

I'm not going to get into any heavy theology here (since I'm not a theologian). So let me get this straight. When I was presented the Gospel and I chose to give my life to Jesus Christ, I didn't really choose God? My "choice" is mearly a delusion on my part? So God ordained that He would save me without any decision or choice on my part?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As to slaps in God's face, the open view clearly qualifies. Sad as I am to say it, I am afraid that it does veer far enough away from orthodoxy to be considered heresy.

Well... saying it does not make it so.

Unless you can come up with something that no other Calvinist has been able to come up with here on TOL I will feel comfortable sticking with what God wrote in the Bible.

 

[kmoney]

I am very grateful to Theology on Line, because through it I recognized that I really didn't know much about theology (though I thought I did!). I have been studying theology for a little while now, and I realize that, although I had always thought of myself as somewhat of a Calvinist, I was an Arminian through and through. I believed in God's perfect foreknowledge, however, I really thought that "election" was a matter of God knowing who would make a free choice to accept him and who would choose to reject him, rather than that the whole thing was a matter of God's work. I know . . . my ignorance was abundant.

To this point, I am sure that all readers can agree with what I have said (if, in fact, there are readers). So this is where that changes. Through my studies, including renewed study of the Bible, I am convinced that unregenerated man is totally incapable of choosing God on his own. Unregenerated man has some freedom in that he is free to choose various forms of evil, but that's it. Accordingly, it must be true that it is God, the only One who is good, that is the ONLY one who is at work in our salvation. Since clearly we are not all saved, it must be the case that it is God who chooses who will be saved and who will not. Since we are incapable of good, the choices God makes in election must be independent of any inherent worthiness on our part (since there is none), and solely based on His own purposes.

So the bottom line is I am now willing to declare myself to be unreservedly Calvinist. In fact, I have even switched denomination from Southern Baptist to Reformed Presbyterian (PCA).

Again, I must express my gratitude to TOL for its part in leading me to a more serious study of theology, though I realize the end result is not pleasing to those in charge here.

Just stopping in to say welcome back! It's good to see you on TOL again. :wave2:


...but this thread may end up pretty interesting. :think:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

docrob57, good to see you again. I've found that most critics of Calvinism base their criticism on simple misunderstandings. It's not so much a misunderstanding of Calvinism as it is a misunderstanding of the Bible itself.

The sovereignty of God is a good place to start when explaining the Bible to OVers and such. Pink has written at length on the subject and of course there's always Luther and Calvin that you can fall back on as well as more modern work by Boettner.

While I do not believe in a settled future I do believe that the most coherent message throughout the course of the Bible is the Calvinist interpretation, but of course Christian theology often consists of scripture versus scripture so I wish you the best of luck when tangling with the OVers around here.

allsmiles promotes and prefers Calvinism because it affords him the best opportunity to mock the Bible and demonstrate apparent inconsistencies.

 

[allsmiles]

I'm not going to get into any heavy theology here (since I'm not a theologian). So let me get this straight. When I was presented the Gospel and I chose to give my life to Jesus Christ, I didn't really choose God? My "choice" is mearly a delusion on my part? So God ordained that He would save me without any decision or choice on my part?

No, you did choose to give your life to Jesus Christ, it's just that the choice was preordained. You're not asking this question of docrob, you're asking it of God. Think of it like a book, with a start, a middle and a finish. God is the author and you are a character in his book with a purpose, a life, choices, decisions, etc. You're the one making the decisions, he's the one who wrote the story.

 

[docrob57]

docrob57, good to see you again. I've found that most critics of Calvinism base their criticism on simple misunderstandings. It's not so much a misunderstanding of Calvinism as it is a misunderstanding of the Bible itself.

The sovereignty of God is a good place to start when explaining the Bible to OVers and such. Pink has written at length on the subject and of course there's always Luther and Calvin that you can fall back on as well as more modern work by Boettner.

While I do not believe in a settled future I do believe that the most coherent message throughout the course of the Bible is the Calvinist interpretation, but of course Christian theology often consists of scripture versus scripture so I wish you the best of luck when tangling with the OVers around here.

Good to see you too Smiles. I have to agree that the Reformed view is the most coherent. The OVers want to downplay the sovereignty of God, and I understand that impulse, as it requires an admission of our powerlessness, absent the empowering presence of God in our lives. And sovereignty also leads us to have to accept some hard facts. God does harden some while others He doesn't. Tough idea, but it is the clear teaching of Scripture. The hardest thing for non-Calvinists to accept, I think, is really soli deo gloria. Everything is for the glory of God. Existence isn't about us at all. So by faith (which God grants us, it does not come from within us) we accept that God is working His will, even in the instances that we can't understand.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm not going to get into any heavy theology here (since I'm not a theologian). So let me get this straight. When I was presented the Gospel and I chose to give my life to Jesus Christ, I didn't really choose God? My "choice" is mearly a delusion on my part? So God ordained that He would save me without any decision or choice on my part?

That is precisely what docrob is saying.

This of course also means that no amount of preaching, convincing, witnessing or prayer will make any difference in the final outcome since it has already been ordained in advance who will and who will not be saved.

 

[allsmiles]

allsmiles promotes and prefers Calvinism because it affords him the best opportunity to mock the Bible and demonstrate apparent inconsistencies.

Knight, you can't deny that at some point these discussions always turn into scripture versus scripture. All I do is point it out. And that's not why I prefer Calvinism Knight, I firmly believe that the Calvinistic interpretation is the most coherent message throughout the Bible. It's no surprise to me that the Bible is theologically incoherent for the most part though.

 

[docrob57]

I'm not going to get into any heavy theology here (since I'm not a theologian). So let me get this straight. When I was presented the Gospel and I chose to give my life to Jesus Christ, I didn't really choose God? My "choice" is mearly a delusion on my part? So God ordained that He would save me without any decision or choice on my part?

Yes

 

[allsmiles]

Good to see you too Smiles. I have to agree that the Reformed view is the most coherent. The OVers want to downplay the sovereignty of God, and I understand that impulse, as it requires an admission of our powerlessness, absent the empowering presence of God in our lives. And sovereignty also leads us to have to accept some hard facts. God does harden some while others He doesn't. Tough idea, but it is the clear teaching of Scripture. The hardest thing for non-Calvinists to accept, I think, is really soli deo gloria. Everything is for the glory of God. Existence isn't about us at all. So by faith (which God grants us, it does not come from within us) we accept that God is working His will, even in the instances that we can't understand.

In my experience, mostly here at TOL, arguments for Calvinism are usually strongly based on the word while arguments against it usually amount to theological inconsistencies, misinterpretations of Calvinism itself and imagined philosophy... it just doesn't sit well with Christians, so they reject it, but on emotional grounds.

 

[Nomad]

No, you did choose to give your life to Jesus Christ, it's just that the choice was preordained. You're not asking this question of docrob, you're asking it of God. Think of it like a book, with a start, a middle and a finish. God is the author and you are a character in his book with a purpose, a life, choices, decisions, etc. You're the one making the decisions, he's the one who wrote the story.

So he chose, which God knew, but God didn't make him choose?

:think:

 

[PKevman]

allsmiles promotes and prefers Calvinism because it affords him the best opportunity to mock the Bible and demonstrate apparent inconsistencies.

So true Knight.

 

[docrob57]

That is precisely what docrob is saying.

This of course also means that no amount of preaching, convincing, witnessing or prayer will make any difference in the final outcome since it has already been ordained in advance who will and who will not be saved.

While theoretically true, God, in accordance with HIs purposes, uses the elect as His human instruments to spread the word to others. I would say it is all part of how we grow in relationship with Him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, you can't deny that at some point these discussions always turn into scripture versus scripture. All I do is point it out. And that's not why I prefer Calvinism Knight, I firmly believe that the Calvinistic interpretation is the most coherent message throughout the Bible. It's no surprise to me that the Bible is theologically incoherent for the most part though.

Actually, from what I know about you it was partially Calvinism that turned you against the Bible.

You are like many people who inherently know that freewill is self evident. Therefore that notion did not jive with what you were being taught in the church and therefore it helped you to reject God's truth.

And here we are now.... the best argument you can make is that you believe that if the Bible were true God had preselected you for damnation. :dizzy:

 

[docrob57]

Just stopping in to say welcome back! It's good to see you on TOL again. :wave2:


...but this thread may end up pretty interesting. :think:

Thanks kmo, good to see you.