Theology Club: ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

heir

TOL Subscriber
Are you not aware that the NT was written in Greek?
Do you speak Greek? Is Greek your native tongue? Do you have the pure words of the Lord in English?

You did not answer my question as to why anyone should think that this woman's salvation remains in the future despite the Lord Jesus' words to her:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​
:yawn:

Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Of course you just evade my questions. If the salvation of individual Jews living while the Lord Jesus walked the earth remains in the future then why would the Lord Jesus tell the woman that she was already saved?:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​

Perhaps you think that the Lord was mistaken? And why would He say the following which makes it plain that His words bring life at the moment when someone believes them?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Notice that the Lord Jesus says that His words ARE (present tense) life. Those who believed Him received life the moment when they believed Him.

And that life is everlasting life, as witnessed by the Lord's words here spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

As you can see the word "believeth" and the word "hath" are both in the present tense. That means that the moment one believes that same moment he receives everlasting life and has passed from death unto life.

Can you give an intelligent answer as to why anyone should believe that those who believed would not receive everlasting life until sometime in the future?
 

Danoh

New member
Of course you just evade my questions. If the salvation of individual Jews living while the Lord Jesus walked the earth remains in the future then why would the Lord Jesus tell the woman that she was already saved?:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​

Perhaps you think that the Lord was mistaken? And why would He say the following which makes it plain that His words bring life at the moment when someone believes them?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Notice that the Lord Jesus says that His words ARE (present tense) life. Those who believed Him received life the moment when they believed Him.

And that life is everlasting life, as witnessed by the Lord's words here spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

As you can see the word "believeth" and the word "hath" are both in the present tense. That means that the moment one believes that same moment he receives everlasting life and has passed from death unto life.

Can you give an intelligent answer as to why anyone should believe that those who believed would not receive everlasting life until sometime in the future?

Agreed. Those who walked by faith - in other words, who believed on Him - were forgiven on the basis of Romans 3:25's Him "Whom God" would soon "set forth to be a propitiation through" God's "faith in his blood, to" soon "declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past;" in other words, "through the forebearance of God;"

No; I'm not changing the verse, I am rendering its understanding.
 

Danoh

New member
The prophesised salvation is in regard to the salvation of national or corporate Israel, not individual Jews.

George Eldon Ladd writes that "in the Old Testament the eschatological salvation is always pictured in terms of the national, theocratic fate of the people of Israel" [emphasis added] (Ladd, The Last Things [Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1978], p.8).

In order to rightly divide the word of God you must learn to distinguish betweenthe promises in regard to the nation of Israel and those in regard to individual Jews.

True that.

At the same, you need to be consistent as to the need to rightly divide - if I have understood you properly; in other posts you have Paul preaching both gospels, perhaps separately.

Its clear from Thessalonians that Paul taught much more in Acts 17 than what Luke relates.

That he went beyond, say, Daniel 9 and Luke 24, concerning Christ.

Though Luke does indicate this, later; in Acts 17's "times of this ignorance... but now..." etc.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
At the same, you need to be consistent as to the need to rightly divide - if I have understood you properly; in other posts you have Paul preaching both gospels, perhaps separately.

Yes, when Paul went to the Jews this is the central message he preached:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed that message received life the moment they believed that message (Jn.20:31) and they were also "born of God" the moment they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5).

The message Paul preached to the Gentiles was the "gospel of grace," that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Belief in that gospel saved those who believed the moment when they believed.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes, when Paul went to the Jews this is the central message he preached:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed that message received life the moment they believed that message (Jn.20:31) and they were also "born of God" the moment they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5).

The message Paul preached to the Gentiles was the "gospel of grace," that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Belief in that gospel saved those who believed the moment when they believed.

One must be saved before they believe the Gospel, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost so they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4 !
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
One must be saved before they believe the Gospel, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost so they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

How is that possible since it is belief in the gospel which brings salvation:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
 

Bright Raven

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If there is a twelve in position (saying the 12 are in the body of Christ), why did Christ raise up the Apostle Paul?
 

Danoh

New member
Yes, when Paul went to the Jews this is the central message he preached:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed that message received life the moment they believed that message (Jn.20:31) and they were also "born of God" the moment they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5).

The message Paul preached to the Gentiles was the "gospel of grace," that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Belief in that gospel saved those who believed the moment when they believed.

Brother, it looks like you're basing that on one or two passages here and there?

Acts 9:20, 22 is after his return from Arabia; long since separated from his mother's womb [Jerusalem] and her gospel.

Acts 9:

19. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

An odd passage in that he asserts in Galatians 1 he conferred not with flesh and blood; so what'd they do those "certain days" watch Three Stooges shorts for an intermission, lol

The answer is in Galatians 1:

15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

While in the uncircumcision of his mother's unbelief - Israel's, Acts 7:51 - he was saved apart from Israel's circumcision gospel, Rom. 2:25.

Called by the God's grace to reveal His Son in him - "if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the
offence of the cross ceased" Gal 5:11 "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus," Gal. 6:17.

Acts 9:

13. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14. And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16. For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

This - Acts 9:

19. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

And this - Galatians 1:

17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Actually read this way...

Acts 9: 19a. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Galatians 1: 17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

In other words....

Acts 9:19b. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

He had already been in Arabia some time then he returned to Damascus and preached Christ... that he is the Son of God.

But is that all he preached to them concerning Christ?

He does the same in Acts 17, for example:

1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

That is not Mystery truth. Rather, that is how you handle issues concerning Christ with a Jew, to this very day, before you move on to "okay, so here is why He did not bring your promised kingdom, and, what He is doing today..." let's take a look at some issues in Romans and in Thessalonians..."

In 1st and 2nd Thessalonians - the people Paul preached Jesus is the Christ to in Acts 17, it is evident he had preached much more than simply that Jesus had been the Christ - way much more - issues centering around Daniel 9; also, the issue that Israel had fallen, but that the wrath to come had been delayed - the Pre-Trib Rapture 's deliverance from said then yet future wrath to come, based as said deliverance was, on the truth of Romans 5, and so on."

Both Prophecy and Mystery are based on the resurrection of Christ.

The Blood makes both possible.

At the same time, in Ephesians 5 Paul relates that the Mystery of Christ is the Church.

The mystery of Christ is the Body of Christ... by which the mystery of the gospel that Paul preached among the Gentiles - Mystery Grace during this Mystery age - is saving men into, Eph. 2 and 3.

The key to understanding what Paul means as to Rom. 16:26's "prophetic writings" translated there as "the scriptures of the prophets," is actually found in the phrase "and by the commandment of God."

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world
began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

What 1 Corinthians 2 is relating is the Mystery concerning God's plan to replace those fallen heavenly places with a New Creature - "our glory" - via "the Lord of glory."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If there is a twelve in position (saying the 12 are in the body of Christ), why did Christ raise up the Apostle Paul?

The LORD raised up Paul to be His agent to the Gentiles because His first agent, Israel, failed in the mission to be the light of the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.5:14-16).​

The gospel concerning the Lord Jesus was not going out to the world because of Israel's unbelief so the Lord appointed Paul to act as His new agent to preach the gospel of Christ to all the world.
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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The LORD raised up Paul to be His agent to the Gentiles because His first agent, Israel, failed in the mission to be the light of the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.5:14-16).​

The gospel concerning the Lord Jesus was not going out to the world because of Israel's unbelief so the Lord appointed Paul to act as His new agent to preach the gospel of Christ to all the world.

I think he raised up Paul because the 12 didn't go. Paul was chosen, he went.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
The twelve are dead, and are therefore neither in or out of anything. It doesn't matter if they were or not because whatever you believe will not magically change what was, is, or is to come. There was only ever one Gospel that matters, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the end all that matters is that God will be made all in all, and that will only happen once everything (and everyone) have been placed in Christ. Jesus has already done all the work to accomplish this, and nothing you believe about God, salvation, or the body of Christ will ever change the fact that in the end God will be all in all.

Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope! This is the only thing that matters!!


Hi and you will never escape the Present Tense of Gal 3:28 as it says in the Body of Christ , THERE ARE NEVER Jews or Greeks , Free orr Slaves NEITHER can there be Male or Female as all are " ESTE" in Christ Jesus ,

As Matt 8:11 , they will see Abraham , Isaac and Jacob and call Mary blessed in the Kingdom of heaven !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I think he raised up Paul because the 12 didn't go. Paul was chosen, he went.

The reason why the 12 didn't go was because they knew this prophecy:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5; NIV).​

They knew that this prophecy revealed that before nations would hasten to Israel that nation must be endowed with splendor.
And that would not happen until the nation accepted the Lord Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Why do you think that the 12 did not carry out this commission?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk.16:15).​
 

Bright Raven

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The reason why the 12 didn't go was because they knew this prophecy:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5; NIV).​

They knew that this prophecy revealed that before nations would hasten to Israel that nation must be endowed with splendor.
And that would not happen until the nation accepted the Lord Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Why do you think that the 12 did not carry out this commission?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk.16:15).​

I don't know why they did not carry out the command of the great commission. May you can enlighten me.
 

Danoh

New member
The LORD raised up Paul to be His agent to the Gentiles because His first agent, Israel, failed in the mission to be the light of the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.5:14-16).​

The gospel concerning the Lord Jesus was not going out to the world because of Israel's unbelief so the Lord appointed Paul to act as His new agent to preach the gospel of Christ to all the world.

Brother, that is way off - the Mystery was not some sort of an alternative to Israel's failure.

No wonder some see some aspect of the Mystery as supposedly in the OT until Paul.

And nope; that is not the sense of Acts 13.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Brother, that is way off - the Mystery was not some sort of an alternative to Israel's failure.

The preaching of the mystery (the gospel of grace) was not an alternative to Israel's failure.

Instead, it was the Lord's chosen way of bringing Gentiles to salvation. Who are you to question the method the Lord chose to save Gentiles?
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
How is that possible since it is belief in the gospel which brings salvation:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
Jerry, you are right to believe that the gospel of Christ (technically today:the gospel of the grace of God as it's to all men) is the power of God unto salvation, but in another thread, you wrote:

Only by believing a gospel is a person saved. And believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, saves:


Believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God is not the same as the gospel of Christ which includes a most important fact: that Christ died for our sins! Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is not enough to save anyone today! The preaching of the cross is the power of God 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
The preaching of the mystery (the gospel of grace) was not an alternative to Israel's failure.

Instead, it was the Lord's chosen way of bringing Gentiles to salvation. Who are you to question the method the Lord chose to save Gentiles?
Certain Gentiles had hope throughout the Bible as per Genesis 12:1-3 KJV
 
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