Jerry,
You open Round V with numerous Pauline references. I agree with every single Pauline reference. Why does Paul make these statements? People were attempting to justify themselves by doing fleshly law works. They had gone away from God's principle of pursuing the law by faith. Paul addresses this issue for us.
Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[/b] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
You see Jerry, the Jews were attempting to justify themselves by doing works of the law apart from faith in God. Again, the principle I set forth in Round I was God asks man to show faith in different ways. When you quote Paul stating that "no one" can be justified by works of the law, that's absolutely true. Works of the law will not justify. However, OT believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping God's law. Again, where you are confused is, you think I'm saying "works" justified. I am not saying this. What "justifies" is doing what God asks. You argue that "faith" justifies, but what you have failed to define is, "faith in what?" You quote passages that say, "believe in Him" (Christ) or "believe in Him who sent Me" (God), but what does it mean to "believe in God or Christ?" I have shown that "believing in God or Christ" means doing whatever God / Christ asks. If God asked circumcision believers to show faith by keeping the law, that's what they needed to do. If God asks us to "believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ," that's what we need to do.
Next, you respond to Matthew 19:17. I said,
Jesus’ response to the question is, ”Keep the commandments.” Jesus goes on to again quote the Mosaic Law. How much clearer could it be Jerry?
You respond,
It is too bad that Jeremy did not quote the rest of the Lord’s discourse.After the rich man went away the Lord Jesus told His disciples that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of heaven.
You fail to address the issue. I ask again, if the above statement is not true, why would Christ deceive this man? If I had leukemia, and I asked Jerry, “Jerry, what can I do to help my leukemia?” Would it make any sense for Jerry to say, “Well Jeremy, if you eat four Big Macs a day, the leukemia will go away.”? Wouldn’t it make more sense if Jerry told me the truth? Wouldn’t we expect Jerry to say, “You should see an oncologist. Maybe the doctor can help you find a person in your family that would match your bone marrow for a transplant.”?
Why would Christ respond with an answer that is so far in left field? He didn’t… He was telling the young man the truth. Next, I asked,
If Christ did not believe in a “faith / works” program, why would He tell the lawyer and young man a lie? Was Christ attempting to intentionally deceive these men Jerry?
You respond,
Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin.”The law was to “convict” the Jew of his sinfulness so that he would realize that he was in need of a Savior to save him from the penalty and defilement of his sins.Instead of just leaving the rich man should have said that he is a sinner and cannot keep the law and beg for the Lord’s mercy.
Again, you fail to answer the question. Did Jesus tell the rich young ruler something that was not true? Next, you say,
In my very first post in this debate I pointed out that Paul uses the example of David as a man who is justified before God apart from works—“to him that worketh not”(Ro.3:5).
But Jeremy still refuses to reconcile his view that David was required to do “works” in order to be saved with Paul’s words that it is the sinner who “worketh not but believeth” who is justified before God.
Jerry, I have answered this numerous times. To humor you, I will answer again. Paul makes this point in light of his statements in Romans 9:30-32. David's works did not save him. David was justified by faith in God. How did David show he had faith in God? By attempting to keep the law. When David failed, he repented. Even though David's sins were deserving of death, Paul tells us that God graced David out and allowed him to live. Remember, David was a man after God's own heart. God promised that the seed of David would sit on an everlasting throne. God fraced David out of a situation that deserved death. That's why Paul quotes David in Psalm 32.
Romans 4
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
Again, Paul argues the same point Peter argues in Acts 11. David, just like members of the body of Christ, was justified by faith in God. David's works did not save him. David was saved (and spared) because he had faith in God and did what God asked. You continue,
That does not answer my question and Jeremy knows it!We are discussing how David was “justified” and not whether or not David was spared by grace or not.Paul uses David as an example someone who lived under the law and he was justified before God apart from works—”to him that worketh not”!:
David was justified by faith in God. David followed God's commandments and kept the law by faith. The work did not save David, God saved David when he showed he had faith. Next, Jerry seems to continue to misunderstand me.
But since it is impossible to reconcile the idea that “works” are required for justification with Paul’s teaching that it is he who “worketh not” Jeremy does not even try.
Jerry... How many times do I need to say this? God changes the way He asks man to show faith! Under the law, God asks man to show faith by attempting to keep the law. In the body of Christ, God asks man to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection. We both have the same faith in God, but that faith is manifested in different ways. Is it really that difficult Jerry? Next, you are critical of my comments on Rom 6:23.
Jeremy forgets that in this debate he is arguing just the opposite—that at one time works were required for salvation.In order to get around the fact that “works” were never required for the “free gift” of eternal life,he argues that the works in themselves did not save but were just a demonsration of faith.But if “works” were required in order to demonstrate faith and faith is necessary for salvation,then it is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Jeremy is teaching that “works” are required for salvation.And not only that,he also teaches that the Jews must be “justified” by “works”.So it is beyond me how Jeremy can say that he is “not saying that ‘works are required’ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life!
Jerry seems to see the light and sort of understand what I'm saying. What Jerry fails to understand is, I'm arguing that man is justified by faith in God. Jerry fails to understand that I argue that same faith in God is shown in different ways. Jerry fails to understand that God sets the "house rules" for man, and determines how he wants man to show faith. Jerry, do you agree that a "dispensation" is the method by which God deals with man? Do you agree that a dispensation is God's set of "house rules" or marching orders for man? You continue,
When a “gospel” went to the Jews after the resurrection the “message” is the fact that the Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah,the Son of God.On the day of Pentecost Peter used the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus to prove that Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah:
” Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”(Acts2:36).
Once again, Jerry fails to continue with the context. Here is Jerry's summary of Acts 2...
Those Jews who believed this “good news” were “born of God” at the very moment they believed.They were “regenerated” or “born again” when they believed that the Lord Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God:
Too bad Peter disagrees with Jerry...
Acts 2
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter, under the gospel of the circumcision tells these Jewish believers that they must
repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. After they show their faith by being water baptized, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are born again. This is another one of those "everlasting covenants" that Jerry despises. Water baptism was in effect for the nation of Israel. This faithful ordinance was established back in Numbers 19.
Numbers 19
9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.
17 And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin,
21a It shall be a perpetual statute for them.
Notice Jerry, it is water of purification from sin! How long will this ordinance last for Israel? It will last
forever! It is a
perpetual statute for Israel! Who was Peter addressing on the day of Pentecost? The nation of Israel!
Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
10b visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-
Peter's audience on the day of Pentecost was the nation of Israel Jerry. Peter admonished them to show their faith by submitting to water baptism for purification from sin. It was a perpetual statute for them. Now, Jerry, I know you're going to ask, so I'll answer before you ask. No, the water did not save them. The water was not in any way magical. The children of Israel were asked to show their faith by submitting to water baptism. When they responded by faith and submitted to the rite of water baptism, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You continue with Peter,
He seems to think Peter did not preach a “faith only” meassage to Cornelius and his household:
Um, he didn't...
Acts 10:35
35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Jerry continues,
And while Peter was saying those words the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and all those in his household!They were saved without doing any works.Peter was not preaching a message demanding “works of righteousness” for salvation.He said that those who “believe” will receive the remission of sin—“faith only”.
That's right! Why did God save them before they showed their faith in a physical way? Because God started the body of Christ in Acts 9 with Paul's conversion. God's house rules changed Jerry. What did Peter do when God interrupted him? He went on with the circumcision message he knew...
Acts 10
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Why were they "astonished" Jerry? Because they received the Holy Spirit
before being baptized! They had never encountered this before! Let's continue,
Acts 10
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Peter continues with the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. What Peter does not realize is that God changed His house rules and no longer required water baptism for salvation. Peter went on with his circumcision message... Next, Jerry jumps to 1 John 5:11. Talk about beating a dead horse! Let's look at the context
again Jerry...
1 John 5
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
John opens with MOTS Jerry...
Keep His Commandments!
1 John 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
Jerry, you fail to interpret this verse within it's context. They love God "if they keep His commandments" by faith. How do they show that they "believe God?" By doing what God asks them to do by faith. If they show that they love God and "keep His commandments" by faith, they possess eternal life. Let's continue,
1 John 5
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Jerry, what are
"these things" John has written
"that they may know they have eternal life?" The theme in 1 John is "Keep my commandments!" Let's keep going...
1 John 5
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
Is this true for the body of Christ Jerry? Do you get
everything you pray for? Me neither... Once you understand that 1 John is written to the circumcision believers, and not the body of Christ, you no longer have to do your typing gymnastics to attempt to explain away the problems. Let's continue,
1 John 5
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
Now, what's going on here Jerry? You argue that if a person under the law sinned, he died physically. In light of all the information I have provided concerning Numbers 15 and Hebrews 10:26-29, we can see that John is referring to different types of sin. There are some "unintentional sins" which can be forgiven. There are certain "presumptous" sins that a brother could commit that would result in spiritual death. That's why John admonishes them to pray for their brother "who is sinning a sin which does not lead to death." If a brother is committing an "unintentional sin" they should pray for that brother. If they see a brother sinning a "presumptous or intentional" sin, John says they are lost, and should not pray for that brother. Let's continue,
1 John 5
18a We know that whoever is born of God does not sin;
Now Jerry, are you going to argue that believers do not sin, ever? In light of all the information I have provided, John is referring to "presumptous" sin. Whoever is born of God does not sin intentionally. If they do sin intentionally, they should not be prayed for and are lost (Num 15:32; Heb 10:26-29). 1 John 5:11 needs to be interpreted in light of this truth Jerry. John is writing to circumcision believers who are under a conditional program. If they love God, they keep His commandments. If they keep His commandments "by faith" they possess eternal life. If they sin "unintentionally" they can confess (1 John 1:9) to be forgiven. Their brethren can pray for them. If they sin "presumptously or intentionally," they are lost. Their brethren should not pray for them because they are lost. Next, you move on to Matthew 10:28,
”And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish;neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.My Father,who gave them to Me…”(Jn.10:28,29).
Here Jeremy is forced to violate a principle of sound Bibical exegesis when he adds “conditions” to the Lord’s “unconditional” statement.Jeremy just cannot deal with the Scriptures as they are written or else he must admit that his ideas are wrong.Also, the Lord Jesus said that those who He has given eternal life were given to Him by the Father:
Jerry, you have done nothing to show that this is an unconditional statement. The circumcision gospel is full of conditions and must be interpreted as such! How does Jesus "give" eternal life? They receive it after they show that they have faith. As long as they continue to abide in Him, they will never perish. No one is able to take the salvation from them, but they can lose it themselves. If they sin "intentionally" they can fall away and lose it (1 John 5; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20). Next, Jerry jumps to Judas...
”And this is the Father’s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He hath given Me I should lose nothing,but should raise them up again at the last day”(Jn.6:39).
Jeremy knows that this verse is devestaing to his teaching,so he says that the Lord did not do the will of the Father because Judas was lost!He says:
Judas is another example of one who “possessed eternal life,” fell away, and went to hell. The Father gave Judas to Christ, and Judas was lost…
Despite the fact that the Lord Jesus said that He came to do the Father’s will and the Father’s will is that He should lose “none” of those who were given to Him by the Father,Jeremy says that “the Father gave Judas to Christ,but Judas was lost!”
Jesus did not "lose" Judas. Judas freely chose to betray Christ and reject God's commands for him. All that remain faithful under the circumcision gospel will be raised up in the last day. This is the will of God. Christ chose the 12, but knew Judas' heart. Jesus called Judas a devil! How did Jesus know Judas was a devil? Because Judas fell away and no loger believed in Him. Judas freely fell away, Christ did not lose Him. Next, Jerry comments on eternal security for circumcision believers.
Despite all of Jeremy’s protests to the contrary,there can be no doubt that the Jewish believers did in fact possess “eternal security”.The Jewish believers were told that they already possess a life in the Son that will not end.The Lord Jesus said that those who have been given eternal life shall not perish and that He will lose none of those who were given to Him by the Father.Jude thells them that they are “preserved” in Jesus Christ:
Jerry, how many times do we need to go over this? I have already provided Numbers 15; Matthew 24:13; John 15; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20,21; Rev 3:5. Circumcision believers could lose their salvation. Circumcision believers could committ a sin that led to death. They could be lost! There no longer remains a sacrifice for their intentional sin. The body of Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and we cannot lose our salvation.
In my next post, I will respond to Jerry's comments on my questions, and then I will answer his questions...
--Jeremy
