BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[elected4ever]

We all agree that God knows all that is knowable. The future does not exist, so God correctly knows it as possible rather than actual.

God does know all that is knowable and the future is knowable to God but not to man. We must rely on the faithfulness of God in order that we may know the future. Indeed it is God's foreknowledge that we rely upon. This in no way prevents man's freedom of choice. Man's freedom of choice is limited to what he knows or thinks he knows. God is the only reliable source of knowledge of future events. Man is subject to manipulation and God is not. This does not require the predestination of the everyday events of man or individuals. Man can make free choices but is limited by his knowledge. We should not think of God it the same terms as we think of man.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I Regrettably, you are forced to make these figurative to retain your closed theism.

I do not support "closed theism".What I object to is the method of interpreting Scriptures that is being used here to support the Open view.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[godrulz]

God does know all that is knowable and the future is knowable to God but not to man. We must rely on the faithfulness of God in order that we may know the future. Indeed it is God's foreknowledge that we rely upon. This in no way prevents man's freedom of choice. Man's freedom of choice is limited to what he knows or thinks he knows. God is the only reliable source of knowledge of future events. Man is subject to manipulation and God is not. This does not require the predestination of the everyday events of man or individuals. Man can make free choices but is limited by his knowledge. We should not think of God it the same terms as we think of man.

Man is not a god. God's knowledge of the past and present is perfect and exhaustive. The nature of the future is not identical to the past/present. Possible/probable is not actual, even in God's experience. You are begging the question to assume that God knows the future. This is highly problematic to free will and contingencies. There is no need for an omnicompetent God to know the future exhaustively. He would, if it was possible. He knows the future as it is in reality...not yet and open. This is not a deficiency in omniscience anymore than the fact that God cannot create square circles or cannot make rocks too heavy to lift limits omnipotence (absurd).

 

[elected4ever]

Man is not a god. God's knowledge of the past and present is perfect and exhaustive. The nature of the future is not identical to the past/present. Possible/probable is not actual, even in God's experience. You are begging the question to assume that God knows the future. This is highly problematic to free will and contingencies. There is no need for an omnicompetent God to know the future exhaustively. He would, if it was possible. He knows the future as it is in reality...not yet and open. This is not a deficiency in omniscience anymore than the fact that God cannot create square circles or cannot make rocks too heavy to lift limits omnipotence (absurd).

A straw man if I ever seen one. God 's knowledge of what you will choose 5 days from now does not limit your ability to make them. The only thing that will effect your choices are what you know and what you think you know. Your choice is only as good as the information you have. God makes choices on the information he has which is complete knowledge of past, present and future events. You have no such knowledge.

 

[STONE]

:chuckle:
That's very clever! I love puns!


I was thinking about this earlier this morning and it would probably be more accurate to say that most CVer's are Augustinian to one degree or another and so since Calvinism is basically revised Augustinianism therein lies the confusion. That along with the fact that most OVer's, myself included, tend to render our opponents positions in light of the logical conclusions to which their positions lead and more often than not that means Calvinism (Augustinianism). Because of this we are often accused of misrepresenting our opponents views and creating straw men to knock down but it isn't really true. At worst we are guilty of jumping the gun and racing to quickly to the end of things without taking the time to establish what it is we are reacting too.
At any rate, this open theist knows that not everyone who disagrees with me would call themselves a Calvinist whether they unwittingly support his theology or not and I do try not to insist that they are a Calvinist although I don't always succeed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

The Augustinian label put upon the Closed view is both innacurate and dishonest. We have gone over this before. The closed view is the traditional Jewish view (remember...the Bible was written by all Jews). This is blatantly evident to anyone who has studied Judaism or talked to most any Rabbi.

 

[RightIdea]

A straw man if I ever seen one. God 's knowledge of what you will choose 5 days from now does not limit your ability to make them. The only thing that will effect your choices are what you know and what you think you know. Your choice is only as good as the information you have. God makes choices on the information he has which is complete knowledge of past, present and future events. You have no such knowledge.

That's a nice little ipse dixit. LOL

The problem is that we have passages where:

God says X will happen, and then it doesn't happen.

God says he will do X, and then He doesn't do it.

God says in the first person that He changed His mind.

God says He is "weary of repenting" so many times.

God says explicitly in the first person that He was going to do X but now He will do Y instead. (Contrary to the idea that He was never going to do X to begin with.)

God regretting decisions He's made.



These things are a problem for the closed view. Either God was telling the truth and expected those things to happen, or God lied. Take your pick.

Some of the above Open posts are hitting the nail on the head. This is what I was driving at, in regards to my siggy. The fact is that it is a GOOD thing that many prophecies do not come true as stated!

If the Jonah prophecy had come about as stated, it would be a bad thing! God says He'll "surely" destroy them on X day, and then they repent. If He had destroyed them anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity.

If God promised blessings to a nation (like Israel) and she became wicked and He blessed her anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity. It is a wonderful thing, to be celebrated, the fact that God changes His mind, and that many of His prophecies do not come about as stated. Such things are a testimony to God's righteousness and justice.

I thank God that He changes His mind. If He didn't, the world would be in sad shape, indeed.

 

[Aimiel]

This is not a deficiency in omniscience anymore than the fact that God cannot create square circles or cannot make rocks too heavy to lift limits omnipotence (absurd).

I believe that before creation that all that there was was just this really big rock that God couldn't lift (He made it when Jesus bet Michael that His Dad could make a rock too big for even Himself to lift) because it took up all the space there is (they still don't know how big it was, because it took up all of eternity and there was no room for even a tape measure left to take it's circumference).

 

[Clete]

The Augustinian label put upon the Closed view is both innacurate and dishonest.

No it isn't. The fact is the most Christians believe the future is closed and most of them do so, directly or indirectly because of what Augustine taught. They may or may not be aware of it but that doesn't change the fact that nearly everyone who calls themselves a Christian beleives what they believe at least in part because of what Augstine wrote. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, it's not, but it is the truth that most of what people bring up in opposition to the open view has something to do with the way Augustine interpreted the Bible.

We have gone over this before. The closed view is the traditional Jewish view (remember...the Bible was written by all Jews). This is blatantly evident to anyone who has studied Judaism or talked to most any Rabbi.

Bull.

I've heard this nonsense a dozen times before and there is always just as many people who can quote old Jewish literature that shows that the Jews of antiquity were of the open view persuation.

The bottle line is, it doesn't matter. The Bible presents an open view of the future and so the future is open. I don't care how many dead Jews disagree with it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't think Luke was a Jew, by the way.

 

[STONE]

No it isn't. The fact is the most Christians believe the future is closed and most of them do so, directly or indirectly because of what Augustine taught. They may or may not be aware of it but that doesn't change the fact that nearly everyone who calls themselves a Christian beleives what they believe at least in part because of what Augstine wrote. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, it's not, but it is the truth that most of what people bring up in opposition to the open view has something to do with the way Augustine interpreted the Bible.


Bull.

I've heard this nonsense a dozen times before and there is always just as many people who can quote old Jewish literature that shows that the Jews of antiquity were of the open view persuation.

The bottle line is, it doesn't matter. The Bible presents an open view of the future and so the future is open. I don't care how many dead Jews disagree with it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

It is true you dont care, as this is smply not true. Please show an example or concede your remarks are baseless.

 

[STONE]

That's a nice little ipse dixit. LOL

The problem is that we have passages where:

God says X will happen, and then it doesn't happen.

God says he will do X, and then He doesn't do it.

God says in the first person that He changed His mind.

God says He is "weary of repenting" so many times.

God says explicitly in the first person that He was going to do X but now He will do Y instead. (Contrary to the idea that He was never going to do X to begin with.)

God regretting decisions He's made.



These things are a problem for the closed view. Either God was telling the truth and expected those things to happen, or God lied. Take your pick.

Some of the above Open posts are hitting the nail on the head. This is what I was driving at, in regards to my siggy. The fact is that it is a GOOD thing that many prophecies do not come true as stated!

If the Jonah prophecy had come about as stated, it would be a bad thing! God says He'll "surely" destroy them on X day, and then they repent. If He had destroyed them anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity.

If God promised blessings to a nation (like Israel) and she became wicked and He blessed her anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity. It is a wonderful thing, to be celebrated, the fact that God changes His mind, and that many of His prophecies do not come about as stated. Such things are a testimony to God's righteousness and justice.

I thank God that He changes His mind. If He didn't, the world would be in sad shape, indeed.

These are not problems for the closed view. God has long ago made the righteous judgment that if a man sin then he will be corrected/punished. If man repents He will receive mercy. These righteous judgments are fixed...there is no change except in circumstances warranting specific judgments. God is a Rock of righteousness. God pronounces His fixed eternal Judgments measured against given circumstances. If cicumstances change then they will be measured against God's fixed eternal judgments. God's ways are not given to change, the creation is given to change.

 

[Clete]

It is true you dont care, as this is smply not true. Please show an example or concede your remarks are baseless.

I won't concede anything. I am not a expert on ancient Jewish Literature and culture, but I am not lying when I say that when people bring this stuff up (as thought it was relevant) someone inevitably comes in and quotes copious amount of material that shows clearly that the Jews did not think of God as existing outside of time nor with perfect foreknowledge and most certainly did not beleive that everything was predestined. Predestination was a distinctly Greek notion and began with Aristotle and Plato.

And you can make light of it if you like but I mean it when I say I don't care about whether or not the Jews were closed viewers or not. I am not even attempting to say that they were or weren't. If anything I'm saying that we don't know. But one thing I do know is that if they were then they were wrong. My standard of truth is the Bible not Jewish tradition.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

That's a nice little ipse dixit. LOL

The problem is that we have passages where:

God says X will happen, and then it doesn't happen.

God says he will do X, and then He doesn't do it.

God says in the first person that He changed His mind.

God says He is "weary of repenting" so many times.

God says explicitly in the first person that He was going to do X but now He will do Y instead. (Contrary to the idea that He was never going to do X to begin with.)

God regretting decisions He's made.



These things are a problem for the closed view. Either God was telling the truth and expected those things to happen, or God lied. Take your pick.

Some of the above Open posts are hitting the nail on the head. This is what I was driving at, in regards to my siggy. The fact is that it is a GOOD thing that many prophecies do not come true as stated!

If the Jonah prophecy had come about as stated, it would be a bad thing! God says He'll "surely" destroy them on X day, and then they repent. If He had destroyed them anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity.

If God promised blessings to a nation (like Israel) and she became wicked and He blessed her anyway, this would be evidence against the righteous God of Christianity. It is a wonderful thing, to be celebrated, the fact that God changes His mind, and that many of His prophecies do not come about as stated. Such things are a testimony to God's righteousness and justice.

I thank God that He changes His mind. If He didn't, the world would be in sad shape, indeed.

Ah the Ninivites. Do you think the Ninivites changed there minds because of the information they received? Don't you think God knew they would repent if they knew what would happen to them? It is not God's foreknowledge that is in question or His not destroying Ninava when he said He would but God knew they would repent when they were told. It is God's foreknowledge at work.

 

[STONE]

I won't concede anything. I am not a expert on ancient Jewish Literature and culture, but I am not lying when I say that when people bring this stuff up (as thought it was relevant) someone inevitably comes in and quotes copious amount of material that shows clearly that the Jews did not think of God as existing outside of time nor with perfect foreknowledge and most certainly did not beleive that everything was predestined. Predestination was a distinctly Greek notion and began with Aristotle and Plato.

And you can make light of it if you like but I mean it when I say I don't care about whether or not the Jews were closed viewers or not. I am not even attempting to say that they were or weren't. If anything I'm saying that we don't know. But one thing I do know is that if they were then they were wrong. My standard of truth is the Bible not Jewish tradition.

Right...you wont concede anything. I guess we'll have to take your word for it that all this Jewish OV literature exists since you have no evidence. Though your position is that perfect foreknowledge/timelessness comes from the Greeks, it clearly came from the Jews.

Regarding that you dont care whether the Jews were closed viewer's or not:
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." -Jesus

 

[drbrumley]

Ah the Ninivites. Do you think the Ninivites changed there minds because of the information they received? Don't you think God knew they would repent if they knew what would happen to them? It is not God's foreknowledge that is in question or His not destroying Ninava when he said He would but God knew they would repent when they were told. It is God's foreknowledge at work.

It is difficult to take this passage at face value while holding that God possesses EDF. If God knew with certainty all along that Nineveh was going to repent, then his prophecy through Jonah that the city would be destroyed in 40 days was simply insincere and manipulative. Not only this, but if God didn't really change his mind regarding the future of Nineveh, then the explicit biblical teaching that "God changed his mind about the calamity" seems misleading.

By contrast, admit that the future can to some extent be open and the text can be taken in a straightforward literal fashion.

SOURCE

 

[Truppenzwei]

Right...you wont concede anything. I guess we'll have to take your word for it that all this Jewish OV literature exists since you have no evidence. Though your position is that perfect foreknowledge/timelessness comes from the Greeks, it clearly came from the Jews.

Regarding that you dont care whether the Jews were closed viewer's or not:
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." -Jesus

tell you what stone, let's see some citations for your point of view

 

[servent101]

Stone

Regarding that you dont care whether the Jews were closed viewer's or not:
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

In my opinion the concept of having a perfect doctrine - revealing everything about God from day one simply does not meet the necessity of being Inspired. As for our understanding of God, we learn from History - that God gradually revealed Himself to a "people" according to the circumstances - and as the circumstances dictated God revealed Himself in a way the "people" could understand. To the offspring of Abraham - as the God of the Sword.... and as long as you take this revalation as "complete" from day one... you are in fairyland, and unable to comprehend anything of what God has Spoken in time, place and circumstance. So so what if the Jews had this or that comprehension of God... thusfar - this has nothing to do with what God has revealed to us today in our time, our place and our circumstance.

With Christ's Love\

Servent101

 

[elected4ever]

It is difficult to take this passage at face value while holding that God possesses EDF. If God knew with certainty all along that Nineveh was going to repent, then his prophecy through Jonah that the city would be destroyed in 40 days was simply insincere and manipulative. Not only this, but if God didn't really change his mind regarding the future of Nineveh, then the explicit biblical teaching that "God changed his mind about the calamity" seems misleading.

By contrast, admit that the future can to some extent be open and the text can be taken in a straightforward literal fashion.

SOURCE

Does God's manipulation of humans offend you? The scripture is replete with God's manipulative actions. If you are offended by them then you and Jonah are in the same boat. The question is, Was God righteous in His manipulation regardless of your approval or disapproval? Manipulation is not always synonymous with insincerity. If they had not repented do you think God would have destroyed them? When they changed their mind and repented then it is perfectly reasonable to say that God change his mind and spared them.

 

[godrulz]

A straw man if I ever seen one. God 's knowledge of what you will choose 5 days from now does not limit your ability to make them. The only thing that will effect your choices are what you know and what you think you know. Your choice is only as good as the information you have. God makes choices on the information he has which is complete knowledge of past, present and future events. You have no such knowledge.

The past is fixed and knowable. The present is real time knowledge. The future is not there to know yet. You are wrongly assuming that it is like the fixed past. Saying God knows the future as actual when it is only possible is begging the question. You assume God knows the future based on tradition, not critical thinking. This is the whole point of the Battle: the nature of the open future, not omniscience.

 

[JoyfulRook]

Bob Enyart's First round has been posted!​

 

[godrulz]

Does God's manipulation of humans offend you? The scripture is replete with God's manipulative actions. If you are offended by them then you and Jonah are in the same boat. The question is, Was God righteous in His manipulation regardless of your approval or disapproval? Manipulation is not always synonymous with insincerity. If they had not repented do you think God would have destroyed them? When they changed their mind and repented then it is perfectly reasonable to say that God change his mind and spared them.

Free will is diametrically opposed to manipulation/coercion. Just because God 'manipulates' some things, does not mean He micromanages everything. We have genuine, significant freedom, though not unlimited. God is not the only free moral agent in the universe. We cannot blame God for everything.