Berean Todd
New member
SOTK, this was a brilliant refutation of Mustard and Mormonism. Excellent job! :thumb:
You can find the context here: http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=412845#post412845
Originally posted by SOTK4ever
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed
What you're writting is typical Anti-Mormon and not Christian.
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Whatever. I submit that Mormons are Anti-Christian going so far to say that "true Christianity fell into apostasy, making it necessary for a restoration". Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, on page 513 of his book Mormon Doctrine writes, "Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism.....Mormons are true Christians". The Mormon Church has always held the position that they alone represent "true" Christianity. So, who's being Anti-Christian? Not me.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed No, you are plenty active in throwing in your private interpretations of the Bible. Any claim otherwise is simply an attempt at repeating something in the hopes that it will be believed. You are showing no reasoning you are simply stating your positions over and over again.
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You are the one who is showing no reasoning and simply stating your positions over and over again. My Interpretations? Unless you can show otherwise, there are no other Christian denominations which even come close to interpreting what mormons interpret from the Holy Bible. My interpretations of scripture, for the most part, are right on, and are shared by the majority of Bible believing Christians, regardless of denomination. In other words, my interpretation of Matthew 7:15, Matthew 12:39, Matthew 5:17-19, and 2 Peter 2:1 is shared by the majority of Christians. I can't think of another Christian denomination which believes in prophets appearing after Christ's ressurection. I can think of no Christian denomination which actually claims they have a modern day "true" prophet in their midst.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed Anyone who says it can be proven either way is ignoring true science.
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The Holy Bible's descriptions of cities and civilizations have been proven by "true science". Why should the BOM any different? You are going to actually state that the "Book of Mormon's descriptions of cities and civilizations" can not be proven either for or against the BOM? How convenient for the mormons! How do you reconcile the Mongoloid Factor?
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"Now, if the Lamanites, as the BOM claims, were the descendants of Nephi, who was a Jew of the Mediterranean Caucasoid type, then their descendants, Native Americans, would by necessity have the same blood factor genotypically, and the phenotypic or apparent characteristics would be the same. But this is not at all the case. Instead, the Native American, so say anthropologists, is not of Semitic extraction and has the definite phenotypical characteristics of a Mongoloid. A thorough study of anthropology and such writers as W.C. Boyd (The Contributions of Genetics to Anthropology) and Bentley Glass, the gifted geneticist of Johns Hopkins University, reveals that Mormon findings based upon the BOM are out of harmony with the findings of geneticists and anthropologists. There simply is no foundation for the postulation that the Native American (Lamanites, according to the Mormons) is in any way related to the race to which Nephi (a Semite) allegedly belonged". (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults)
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These civilizations also would have left tell-tale signs such as ruins, metals, etc. BOM claims that there were elephants on this continent and described metals which these civilizations apparently used. Science has found that elephants have never existed on this continent and the metals described in the BOM have never been found in any of the areas of contemporary civilizations of the New World.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed Ahh. I see how it is. Real scientists also discredit the divinity of Christ. Do you believe them? Your own faith cannot stand up to the 'scientific community'.
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As Bob Enyart described in the debate between himself and Zakath, "true science", as you call it, does not hurt God's Word. I also believe this. I thought Bob proved this very effectively. Most historians and anthropologists believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed as described in the Bible. Science can't prove or disprove the divinity of Christ, but I wasn't speaking to that. My reference to science disproving the BOM has to do with the civilizations, cities and such which the BOM states existed. Nice try, Mustard Seed, but you aren't going to be able to change the topic that easily. At any rate, I, for one, am not fearful of the findings of science. Why are mormons?
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed He wasn't an Archeologist. He was a Lawyer. He had unreallistic expectations of Archeology and science in general. Look into his story a little more and you will realize how poor an argument he is.
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What I find fascinating, is that Ferguson, along with many other Mormons who began a search into proving the findings of the BOM and ended up disproving it, are excommunicated.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed And the Bibles never changed? Show me the major changes in the Book of Mormon? If they are so incredible then you would be happy I would guess to 'expose' them.
Up to this point you're all talk and no action.
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OK.
1. In Mosiah 21:28, it is declared that "King Mosiah had a gift from God";but in the original edition of the book, the name of the king was Benjamin- an oversight that thoughtful Mormon scribes corrected. This is not, of course, a typographical error, as there is little resemblance between the names Benjamin and Mosiah.
2. When compared with the 1830 edition, 1 Nephi 19:16-20 reveals more than twenty changes in the "inspired Book of Mormon,' words having been dropped, spelling corrected, and words and phraseology added and turned about. This is a strange way to treat an inspired revelation from God.
3. In Alma 28:14-29:11, more than eighteen changes my be counted from the original edition. On page 303, the phrase, "yea, decree unto them that decrees which are unalterable," was dropped in later editions, but strangely reappeared in 1981. (See Alma 29:4)
4. On page 25 of the 1830 edition, the BOM declares: "And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father." Yet in 1 Nephi 11:21, the later editions of the read: "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea even the son of the eternal Father."
5. ON page 25 of the original edition of the BOM, it states "Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God." Noting this unfortunate lapse into Romanistic theology, Joseph Smith and his considerate editors changed 1 Nephi 11:18 (as well as 1 Nephi 11:21, 32; 13:40) so that it now reads: "Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of the Son of God."
Yet, you say the BOM is the Word of God?
1 Peter 1:25
"The word of the Lord endureth for ever".
John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth".
The Bible has been translated from a few different languages, but the BOM was supposedly only translated from one; Reformed Egyptian, which nobody has ever even proved was an actual language.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed Overly simplified a bit. It's not a right or left choice. This is a common tactic used by the likes of you.
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No, it's simple. It's simple because of Mormon doctrine and Mormon statements. Joseph Smith once said, "No man knows my history". He also proclaimed, "the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on the earth". He also said, "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but teh Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet". (History of the Church, 6:408-409)
Wow! Joseph Smith was a cool dude! There is no way that he could have made a mistake, huh Mustard Seed?
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed Your ignorance of the history of metallurgy and of The Book of Mormon accounts is shinning through. No where does it say they had windows and Metallurgy’s history is not what you are portraying it to be.
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Laban, mentioned in one of the characters of the BOM (1 Nephi 4:9), makes use of a steel sword; and Nephi himself claims to have had a steel bow. The ancient Jaredites had steel swords (Ether 7:9).
You'll probably want to quote Psalm 18:34 as a footnote to 1 Nephi 16:18 in the BOM. However, modern translations of the Scriptures indicate that the word translated steel in the Old Testament (since steel was nonexistent) is more properly rendered bronze. Nahum 6:2, NASB, uses "steel" but is taken from the Hebrew word paladah, probably meaning iron.
If the word steel in the BOM should really have been bronze, it undermines the LDS claim that the book was translated by the gift and power of God, since it shows that errors did creep into Joseph Smith's translation. Don't you think so, Mustard Seed?
"Mormons sometimes attempt to defend Nephi's possession of a not yet invented compass (known in the BOM as a Liahona) by the fact that Acts 28:13 states: "And from thence we fetched a compass." Modern translations of the Scripture, however, refute this subterfuge by correctly rendering the passage: "And from there we made a circle."
Added to the preceding anachronisms is the fact that the BOM not only contradicts the Bible, but contradicts other revelations purporting to come from the same God who inspired the BOM. The Bible declares that Messiah of Israel was to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), and the gospel of Matthew (chap 2, v. 1) records the fulfillment of this prophecy. But the BOM (Alma 7:9, 10) states: "....the son of God cometh upon the face of the earth. And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers....". The BOM describes Jerusalem as a city (1 Nephi 1:4) as was Bethlehem described as a separate town in the Bible. The contradiction is irreconcilable. (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, page 206-207).
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed You’d have to account for the rest of the Book of Mormon. It’s a relatively small percentage that has direct links to the Bible (as in almost identical wording).
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How do you explain this?:
The BOM follows the error of the King James translation that renders Isaiah 4:5. "For upon all the glory shall be a defense" (se 2 Nephi 14:5).
Modern translations of Isaiah point out that it should read "For over all the glory there will be a canopy," not a defense. The Hebrew word chuppah does not mean defense but a protective curtain or canopy. Smith, of course, did not know this, nor did the King James translators from whose work he copied. (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, page 205).
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed You’ll need to site your source on that cause I don’t believe you. Last I heard the only thing they ever convicted him of in all his many trials was being guilty of casting out a demon.
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Peep-stone gazing was one of several occult practices deemed illegal in the 1820s. That Joseph Smith's peep-stone gazing episodes met their challenge with the law is irrefutably documented. The original court bill of 1826, charging Smith with "glass looking," was discovered by Rev. Wesley P. Walters, in 1971, at the Chenango County Jail, Norwich, New York. The trial for the misdeamnor crime cost two dollars and sixty-eight cents, which Smith apparently paid. A copy of the original court bill is reproduced in Walter Martin's The Maze of Mormonism (Santa Ana: Vision House, 1978), 37.
Also, Joseph Smith's own mother pretty much confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt that the "prophet" was a confirmed "peep-stone" addict. (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, 91-92).
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed Of course you don’t point out that those who were critical of the prophet all gave different conflicting views on him. Some would say he was a gold digger and others would say he’d never worked a day in his life. Two conflicting tales. Last I checked digging for gold wasn’t easy work. Let’s see your sources. If they are so convincing bring them on.
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The nightmarish blunder of crediting the revelation of the BOM to Nephi instead of Moroni has never ceased to be a proverbial thorn in the side of Mormon historians. Try as they will, it is impossible to erase it from the hand-written manuscripts of the Mormon Church history, which was supervised by Joseph Smith during his life. A reproduction of the manuscript may be found in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's Mormonism-Shadow or Reality (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1987, fifth edition0, 136. Later, in 1842, these manuscripts formed the basis of the published history of Mormonism, again, overseen by Smith before his death, where Nephi appears as the revelatory angel, cf. Times and Seasons, vol. 3 (Nauvoo, Ill.: Times and Seasons0, 753. The first edition of the Pearl of Great Price (1851), with the subtitle "Choice selections of revelations, translations, and narrations of Joseph Smith," contained the name Nephi because the unchallenged history of Mormonism had set such a foundation. (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults
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I think that pretty much confirms that Joseph Smith was a false-prophet and a lousy one at that. He couldn't even get which Angel visited him right.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed I do. Everyday I read the scriptures.
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Good. Keep at it. I pray that one day you will reject the false doctrine of mormonism and come to finally know Jesus Christ.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed You just denied the Testimony of Christ.
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Nope, the testimony of Jesus Christ can be found in the Holy Bible. That's the only place. I've already shown what Jesus had to about false-prophets and false teachers. You see what is not there, unfortunately. I pray you will truly see the Word of God.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed I am repenting every day. To ‘repent’ of believing Joseph to be a prophet of Christ would be a sin.
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Nope, you are living in sin by believing in the false doctrine of mormonism and by believing in it's false teachers and prophets.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed We believe that Christ is God. Where are you getting otherwise?
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You believe that Christ is a God and not THE GOD. You know that, Mustard Seed, which is why I despise mormonism so much. Mormonism does not believe in the triune nature of God and therefore is not Christian. Mormonism is a cult.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed He is a separate being. He is still God. I share that with almost all that will listen.
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I doubt it. I have not met one Mormon who would clarify their position about Christ. Suspecting that I don't know anything about mormonism, mormons have tried on numerous occasions to portray themselves as Christians to me. They have always very conveniently stated that they believed in Jesus Christ. When pressed about the trinity, mormons will finally admit to not believing that God and Jesus Chris and the Holy Spirit are the same being. This is mainstream Christianity and mormons know it! Yet mormons will attempt, everytime, to pass themselves off as Christians.
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Originally posted by Mustard Seed I leave judgment to God. I believe if you are true to Baptist’s creeds then you will eventually receive a Glory that is equal to your merit.
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I don't deserve anything! I am saved by grace. Period! I do my best to live my life by Jesus's commandments and attempt to be as selfless as I can be, but I will fall short quite a bit. This is another major difference between Christianity and Mormonism. A mormons place in heaven is measured by self worth (how good a life you've led). A Christians place in heaven was paid for by Jesus Christ!
You can find the context here: http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=412845#post412845
Great post SOTK 
