Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

marke

Well-known member
I agree Sister. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. Matt 7:14

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
You are right, few there are that find it. Tell me, when did you start looking, before you were supposedly saved or after? Did you begin your journey to find the Lord after reading Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."
 

marke

Well-known member
Some men were born for destruction 12 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Peter here writing about false teachers, states unequivocally that they were as if brute beast, made or born to be taken and destroyed. The word made here is the greek word gennaō means:

of men who fathered children

  1. to be born
  2. to be begotten

And the word destroyed phthora means:

  1. orruption, destruction, perishing
    1. that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
    2. in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
  2. in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay

They have been born to bring in damnable heresies 2 Pet 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now these Christ did not die for, and are the ones appointed to wrath, which they Christ died for are not appointed to.
I find it interesting that you quote from 2 Peter. let me also quote from 2 Peter:
"20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Allow me to make some observations. I assume a Calvinist believes these people are of the body of the elect since the text says they have "known the way of righteousness" and have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Temporarily assuming that is a fact, let us address some other questions. These elect who turn away are said to end in a state that is worse with them than their beginning. What does that mean? Do they lose their election? Is their name is blotted out of the Lamb's book of life? Is there now no more hope of them ever being saved again?

Most Calvinists I talk to don't even attempt to address these questions and I don't really expect any on this forum to do so either. In fact, I think I may have asked these very same questions of Beloved 57 maybe 10 years ago on CARM or some other debate site. I don't remember if I ever got an answer.
 

marke

Well-known member
It was also known and had been prophesied that some were appointed to disobedience again 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Now Luke 2:34

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

The word set keimai means:

metaph.

  1. to be (by God's intent) set, i.e. destined, appointed

This verse corresponds with 1 Pet 2:8

The word fall in Lk 2:34 is the word ptōsis:

a falling, downfall, metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation


that many may fall and bring upon themselves ruin, i. e. the loss of salvation, utter misery, Luke 2:34, cf. Romans 11:11.
If the word "fall" refers to loss of salvation in Luke 2:34, then that must be what God warns us against in 1 Corinthians 10:12, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
 

marke

Well-known member
Exactly Brother, according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph. 3:11, it was appointed for all God's Chosen Elect, even from Everlasting, to be Blessed to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7 by Christ's Obedience on their behalf Rom. 5:19. Hence, these for whom He Died / shed His Blood for, were never under God's wrath and condemnation: Never appointed unto wrath.

However, those which were appointed to disobedience 1 Pet. 2:8; nothing but Eternal ruin and misery awaits them; whose end shall entail being eternally destroyed in the lake of fire Rev. 21:8.
You quote Ephesians. Good. But don't make the mistake so many make who are taught bad doctrine and then refuse to be corrected by the Bible no matter how badly the false doctrine contradicts the truth. Here is what Ephesians 2: 1-3 says about the elect:

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in times past ye walked according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Let me offer some advice. Don't listen to those who claim they were never by nature children of wrath because they are not reckoned by God to be a part of the body of all Christians who once were by nature the children of wrath.
 

marke

Well-known member
The Vessels of Wrath, them which Christ did not die for, and had always destined to wrath, are the goats on His left hand seen here Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand[goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make[appoint] one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now these were in exact opposite from them who have always been the vessels of mercy, the Sheep on His right hand, whom Christ died for Jn 10:11,15 Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This coincides with this Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
I like Matthew 25. Jesus said, beginning at verse 34:

Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, because I was an hungered and ye gave me meat... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (hell was not God's original intention for humans) because I was an hungered and ye gave me no meat...

And some poor Bible students claim God does not save or condemn humans for any known cause but, instead, only for His own good pleasure.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Christs death was for the salvation of the persons God had chosen to salvation 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you [m]from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and [n]belief of the truth: 14 whereunto he called you through our [o]gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are obviously the vessels of mercy Paul wrote of in Rom 9:23,

Yet the others whom God hath appointed to wrath, the vessels of wrath wrote about i Rom 9:22 Christ was not for. See His Death was for Salvation !
 

marke

Well-known member
Christs death was for the salvation of the persons God had chosen to salvation 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you [m]from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and [n]belief of the truth: 14 whereunto he called you through our [o]gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are obviously the vessels of mercy Paul wrote of in Rom 9:23,

Yet the others whom God hath appointed to wrath, the vessels of wrath wrote about i Rom 9:22 Christ was not for. See His Death was for Salvation !
God knew from the foundation of the world which sinners would turn to Him for forgiveness and which sinners would refuse. He did not make their choice for them, they made their own choice. God determined from the beginning to save those who turn from their sins at His rebuke and to condemn those sinners who refuse to turn to Him at His command.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God knew from the foundation of the world which sinners would turn to Him for forgiveness and which sinners would refuse. He did not make their choice for them, they made their own choice. God determined from the beginning to save those who turn from their sins at His rebuke and to condemn those sinners who refuse to turn to Him at His command.
Of course He knew, He caused it.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You claim God made people reject Him. That is a lie, derived from very bad interpretations and misunderstandings of God and His Word.
God made some people for wrath, they are called vessels of wrath, Christ didnt die for them.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
God knew from the foundation of the world which sinners would turn to Him for forgiveness and which sinners would refuse. He did not make their choice for them, they made their own choice. God determined from the beginning to save those who turn from their sins at His rebuke and to condemn those sinners who refuse to turn to Him at His command.
Not according to Calvinism...



“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
 

marke

Well-known member
God made some people for wrath, they are called vessels of wrath, Christ didnt die for them.
You make a huge mistake in assuming it was God's unwavering purpose to create vessels of wrath from most sinners from the very beginning. God did not make hell for sinners He designed to go there. God never intended humans to go to hell, but to hell they went of their own will, and God has no choice but to send them there. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not humans.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God did not make vessels of wrath from scratch. He made vessels of wrath from unworkable clay He first attempted to make into vessels of honor. There can be no other explanation for the fact that God's first attempt to mold the clay into one vessel was abandoned after the clay was discovered to be unworkable.

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You make a huge mistake in assuming it was God's unwavering purpose to create vessels of wrath from most sinners from the very beginning. God did not make hell for sinners He designed to go there. God never intended humans to go to hell, but to hell they went of their own will, and God has no choice but to send them there. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not humans.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God did not make vessels of wrath from scratch. He made vessels of wrath from unworkable clay He first attempted to make into vessels of honor. There can be no other explanation for the fact that God's first attempt to mold the clay into one vessel was abandoned after the clay was discovered to be unworkable.

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Theres no mistake, some men/people were made/created by God as vessels of wrath, fitted by Him for destruction Rom 9 The same are appointed to wrath and not Salvation.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Theres no mistake, some men/people were made/created by God as vessels of wrath, fitted by Him for destruction Rom 9 The same are appointed to wrath and not Salvation.
It is, in fact, comforting to know that Calvinists have no argument to make in support of their hideous doctrine. It's nothing but unsupported claims with no substance whatsoever.

That is perhaps the only good that you accomplish here. You serve to demonstrate the vapid nature of Calvinism.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
About the Vessels of Wrath Rom 9:22

In a similar way vessels of wrath are vessels that are conceived in God's wrath and designed to be the bearers of the righteous indignation of the Most High forever.

This interpretation is corroborated first of all by the fact that in the text vessels of wrath are the very opposite of vessels of mercy; and the latter phrase signifies not merely men that are historically the objects of the mercy, the saving mercy, of God, but men that are ordained in mercy from eternity. The parallel expression, vessels of wrath, must, therefore, be interpreted in a similar fashion. It refers to men whom God has sovereignly known in wrath and whom in His wrath He shapes into vessels unto dishonor in time. And secondly, that this is indeed the correct interpretation is also clear from what is added to the description of these vessels of wrath in the text. They are vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction. The meaning of this latter addition is plain. It signifies: to be so constituted that the end must necessarily be destruction. The vessels of wrath are so constituted that their entire makeup and design and institution serves the purpose of reaching that end of destruction. If we abandon the figure of the vessel, the meaning is that there are men so instituted as to their personality, their power and talents, their position in the world, and their place in the whole of the works of God, that everything tends to their destruction, serves the purpose of leading them not to temporal destruction, but to eternal desolation. Unto this they are fitted. And the question arises naturally: fitted unto destruction by whom? Of course, also here the Arminian is bound to say that men fit themselves unto destruction. That God is sovereign also in the determination of the destruction of the wicked, that, although it remains true that the wicked deliberately seeks his own destruction and walks in the way into eternal desolation, this end is nevertheless sovereignly determined by God, so that there is no accident, the Arminian does not understand and does not want to admit. Everything depends on, is contingent upon the determination of the will of man, according to him. But this explanation is so wholly contrary to the entire context, that I need waste no words to expose its fallacy. If we really desire to submit to the Word of God, if we do not sinfully distort the plain meaning of the words of Scripture, the meaning which the text yields can only be that God fitted these vessels unto destruction. And well may the people of God rejoice in this truth, for it means that all the Pharaohs and all the Nebuchadnezzars and all the Neroes and all Hitlers and Stalins, all the destroyers on the earth, and all the persecutors of the Church, all the haters of Christ and His cause and His people in the world, are absolutely under the control and in the hand of God's sovereign power. According to Arminianism, it is the will of the wicked that rules and that determines the history of the world. According to Scripture, however, the wicked is but the ax with which God hews and the saw which He draws. We are absolutely safe; according to God's eternal thoughts and counsel, all the wicked of the earth are so instituted that they but tend to destruction. Fitted unto destruction they are in God's eternal wrath; for Esau hath He hated.

 

beloved57

Well-known member
What is reprobation:
Reprobation is that eternal will, good pleasure, or purpose of God according to which He determined that some of His moral, rational creatures would be cast into hell forever on account of their sins; and that this fact would serve the cause of Christ and redound to God's glory alone. Rev. Gise J. Van Baren
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God has reprobated as well as chosen. Taken by itself, reprobation is the decree of God in which He has determined, as sovereignly as in election, that some individuals should not enter eternal glory, but are destined for destruction. Herman Hoeksema
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The Vessels of Wrath are the ones God created and omitted their names from the Lambs Book of Life, hence Christ did not in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace never stood as their Surety Heb 7:22, and so never was under any obligation to die for them, and they would be appointed to wrath 1 Thess 5:9, whereas the Vessels of Mercy are those God intimately foreknew, had inscribed their Names in the Lambs book of life, hence Christ did stand as their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb 7:22, and they not appointed to wrath, but to receive Mercy for all their sins, and Christ as their Surety would die for them.
 
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