ChristianForums banned Christ.

[Sarcastikus]

Reread the couplet..

Mormons have God progressing from a man to God.
That's heresy in every century

Yes, I know what you wrote. Heresy is relative, history is written by the winners. If the Gnostics would have won the early doctrinal battles then the faction that evolved into what we think of as orthodox would have been heretical. The first century or two after Jesus must have been an exciting (and frightening) time for all factions.

 

[oftenbuzzard]

Yes, I know what you wrote. Heresy is relative, history is written by the winners. If the Gnostics would have won the early doctrinal battles then the faction that evolved into what we think of as orthodox would have been heretical. The first century or two after Jesus must have been an exciting (and frightening) time for all factions.

And Joseph Smith had lots of relatives.

If frogs had wings and the Hittites had hand grenades...

 

[Mustard Seed]

And Joseph Smith had lots of relatives.

If frogs had wings and the Hittites had hand grenades...

...then often buzzard might actualy gain something akin to an intellect. Till then he's stuck with irrelevant responses in an attempt to appear witty, to hell with any reference to logic.

 

[oftenbuzzard]

...then often buzzard might actualy gain something akin to an intellect. Till then he's stuck with irrelevant responses in an attempt to appear witty, to hell with any reference to logic.

transferrance

 

[Mustard Seed]

...a reciprocation of childish transference to you too.

 

[Mustard Seed]

So are you just ignoring the C.S. Lewis quote? Afraid of offending other Christians who hold him as one of the greatest Christian apologists of all time?

 

[godrulz]

So are you just ignoring the C.S. Lewis quote? Afraid of offending other Christians who hold him as one of the greatest Christian apologists of all time?

Lewis was a popular radio speaker and writer. He made Christian truths understandable to the masses. He was not a theologian and did not claim to be. Not everything he said is biblical.

What book is the quote from? If we can find it and read it in context, I do not think it will support your ideas at all. He was Anglican and did not believe that man will become gods. He did believe that we are to be Christ-like. Until we find the quote in the original source, I would be slow to assume it supports Mormonism in any way.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Buzz. Are you going to answer my question as to whether, regardless the need or desire as you see it, you called out the 'Mormon God' in asking for a sign/for your skin to be changed? Yes or no. No BS on whether or not you think it's necesary or wanted, I'm asking if you did ask for a sign from the 'Mormon God'?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Lewis was a popular radio speaker and writer. He made Christian truths understandable to the masses. He was not a theologian and did not claim to be. Not everything he said is biblical.

He claims it to be biblical. If he's not a theologian, then why not? Can you get any one in the whole of the theological community to say that he is not a theologian in any sense of the word?

What book is the quote from? If we can find it and read it in context, I do not think it will support your ideas at all. He was Anglican and did not believe that man will become gods. He did believe that we are to be Christ-like. Until we find the quote in the original source, I would be slow to assume it supports Mormonism in any way.

It's from Mere Christianity, 174-75, I see no significant differences between what he says and what we believe. Can you point any out?

 

[oftenbuzzard]

Buzz. Are you going to answer my question as to whether, regardless the need or desire as you see it, you called out the 'Mormon God' in asking for a sign/for your skin to be changed? Yes or no. No BS on whether or not you think it's necesary or wanted, I'm asking if you did ask for a sign from the 'Mormon God'?

Why would I ask for a sign from the Mormon God?
He is as fictional as is Sponge Bob Square Pants.

Now if you think he is real, feel free to send a "Dark Skin Curse" my way.

-- BUZZ

Bring'em Young:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

 

[Mustard Seed]

Why would I ask for a sign from the Mormon God?

That's irrelevant. Lots of people do and ask for things they have no reason to ask for.

Now if you think he is real, feel free to send a "Dark Skin Curse" my way.

-- BUZZ

To coin a phrase from an anime version of Strong Bad "Is that a challenge?" Regardless of how you view the necesity or what your claimed desire for such is are you or are you not asking for a sign from the "Mormon God"?

Bring'em Young:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

Are you aware that those who join the church are adopted into the house of Israel and thereby loose their designation as "the seed of Cain"? Are you ignorant of the fact that there are more kinds of death than that which constitutes seperation of the body from the spirit? Did you know a perfectly white person can make themselves a member of "the seed of Cain"? Those who do the works of Cain become his seed. Just as Abraham shuned his father so to can those literal decendents of Cain shun those of their ancestry that were cursed and can be free of that curse.

 

[oftenbuzzard]

That's irrelevant. Lots of people do and ask for things they have no reason to ask for.



To coin a phrase from an anime version of Strong Bad "Is that a challenge?" Regardless of how you view the necesity or what your claimed desire for such is are you or are you not asking for a sign from the "Mormon God"?



Are you aware that those who join the church are adopted into the house of Israel and thereby loose their designation as "the seed of Cain"? Are you ignorant of the fact that there are more kinds of death than that which constitutes seperation of the body from the spirit? Did you know a perfectly white person can make themselves a member of "the seed of Cain"? Those who do the works of Cain become his seed. Just as Abraham shuned his father so to can those literal decendents of Cain shun those of their ancestry that were cursed and can be free of that curse.

So you accept the RACISM of BY that links the AFRICAN RACE with the seed of Cain. How utterly despicable.

And I have no desire for any sign from your racist God or from Sponge Bob, but the later would probably be more edifying.

FYI, if I were God you would be black and beautiful.

Don;t forget you zippo for the cross burning this weekend.

 

[Mustard Seed]

So you accept the RACISM of BY that links the AFRICAN RACE with the seed of Cain. How utterly despicable.

I never said I accepted the racism of anyone. Do you deny the fact that Africans, by birth, are the seed of Cain? Do you deny God giving Cain dark skin as a sign warning others to not kill him?

Look if you want to get into the racism of BY day then by all means. But don't try and slough off the social ills of that day on me like I'm some white Nazi or Klan nut job. Abraham Lincoln, the great emancipator, and contemporary of Brigham Young thought that the Africans were inferior to whites. I don't think they are. But for you to take something that even the most progresive (in terms of viewing humanity as equaly entitled to freedom) of the minds of the day, the very man that would put his character and life on the line for emancipation, would not accept and demand that anyone and everyone accept it then you have serious issues.

Going even beyond racism to the concept of slavery. Will you deny that God seemed indifferent to ABRAHAM, (not the US President this time) ABRAHAM the father of Issac, and Israel, in his position as a slave holder? Of buying humans to be servants? Cause Abraham did it and all God seemed worried about with him, was that he get all the males circumcised and made sure that they followed his laws. God also didn't seem to mind in the Bible about servitude when it came to the Israelites holding servants in bondage as long as they gave them the chance to renew or end their contract every seventh year.

And if racism is still your dish then you've got to have issues with God only letting the Levites to officiate in the Tabernacle or the Temple rites.

Play the race card all you want. It will get you no where if you want to hold on to any significant portion of your Bible.

Look at what Jesus called the non-Israelite woman who sought a blessing from him. He called her a "DOG". A dog, under mosaic law is not Kosher, it's, as the Arabs or Persians would put it "HAREM" or "FORBIDDEN". So Jesus probably wouldn't have passed the whole non-discrimination culture our society is seeking to foster. He'd likely have demands from all sorts of civil right groups demanding an open apology for calling this woman a DOG.

But you go on in your insanity of trying to pin us down as racist nut jobs, you're just demonstrating either your willfull ignorance of the Bible or your complete disregard for much of it.

And I have no desire for any sign from your racist God or from Sponge Bob, but the later would probably be more edifying.

FYI, if I were God you would be black and beautiful.

Don;t forget you zippo for the cross burning this weekend.

Again. Staying the role of moron--you once again answer the wrong question (more accurately you don't answer any question actualy asked). I'm not asking if you have any desire for any sign. I'm asking if, regardless your claimed dissinterest, if you HAVE asked for a sign in saying that the Mormon God give you darker skin than you currently have.

 

[oftenbuzzard]

I never said I accepted the racism of anyone. Do you deny the fact that Africans, by birth, are the seed of Cain? Do you deny God giving Cain dark skin as a sign warning others to not kill him?Again. Staying the role of moron--you once again answer the wrong question (more accurately you don't answer any question actualy asked). I'm not asking if you have any desire for any sign. I'm asking if, regardless your claimed dissinterest, if you HAVE asked for a sign in saying that the Mormon God give you darker skin than you currently have.

Yes, I deny that the African Race are the seed of Cain.
I believe there was a mark placed on Cain, I see no proof it was making him black skinned.
No, I would not pray to the mormon God or ask for a sign -- any sign, that would be idolatry.
I'll leave the Pay Le Ale incantations to you.

Mustard Seed, your racism is becoming more manifest. Most Mormons hide it better than you.

 

[Sarcastikus]

I thought that black Africans were "traditionally" the descendants of Noah's son Ham, based on the flood myths in Genesis and a few other Old Testament references. Besides, wouldn't have Cain's descendants perished in the flood?

 

[Mustard Seed]

I thought that black Africans were "traditionally" the descendants of Noah's son Ham, based on the flood myths in Genesis and a few other Old Testament references. Besides, wouldn't have Cain's descendants perished in the flood?

Ham's wife, Egyptus, was the only desendant of Cain to survive the flood. Her son's became the rulers of what would become Egypt.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Yes, I deny that the African Race are the seed of Cain.
I believe there was a mark placed on Cain, I see no proof it was making him black skinned.
No, I would not pray to the mormon God or ask for a sign -- any sign, that would be idolatry.
I'll leave the Pay Le Ale incantations to you.

I never asked if you would pray to the "Mormon God" only if you would ask for a sign, not as idolatry but in the spirit of Elijah, such as when he taunted the Priests of Baal.

Mustard Seed, your racism is becoming more manifest. Most Mormons hide it better than you.

I'm not manifesting any racism. But you are demonstrating your disregard for the Bible.

Here's one of the many questions you've so far dodged. Is God racist for limiting Temple officiation to one narrow decendancy? For limiting access to most of the temple to only those decendants of Israel?

 

[godrulz]

You're quite correct that what Lewis is referring is sanctification. The way he's phrasing it here is actually remarkably close to the Eastern Orthodox theology of theosis, where man takes on the attributes of the divine, not in the sense of getting kewl magickimal powerz and their own planet to rule over, but in the sense that as we conform our thoughts and actions to the will of God we become more like God. It's not a phrasing that you'll typically find in western, Christian theology, but it's not really anything terribly radical either.

God is ontologically distinct from creation. He is the uncreated Creator. Man is a created being who can be like God in character (though not perfect). God is loving and faithful, etc. and so can we be. We cannot be uncreated triune Creator, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. We can be loving. We are also personal with will, intellect, and emotions, like God.

MS displays an ignorance of the one true God and the beliefs of C.S. Lewis.

 

[Mustard Seed]

From my studies that seems to just be wonky bit of theology that came about largely as an attempt to justify the race-based slavery in the United States. Outside of that context references to it seem virtually non-existent.

23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that aorder established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the bblessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

Abraham 1:23-27

 

[HerodionRomulus]

Ham's wife, Egyptus, was the only desendant of Cain to survive the flood. Her son's became the rulers of what would become Egypt.

Aside from the fact that no such thing really occurred......it seems that the Egyptians did pretty good for a cursed race. They created a civilization which had a high degree of sophistication; culturally, technologically and more. A civilization which lasted almost 4000 years and contributed substantially to all the later civilizations of the ANE.