Companion Thread for KJV only debate

[voltaire]

In galatians 2:16 , the difference in the NIV and the KJV is one says we are justified by faith in Christ and the other says we are justified by the faith of Christ. It is the faith that Christ displayed throughout his life that ultimately justifies those of us who believe on or trust in Christ. Putting our trust is not the same as having faith in Christ. You can have faith that Christ is real and all he did and said was true and still not put your trust in him.
this difference between the NIV and the KJV is significant and could be deadly if your faith comes under attack and you dont have firm scriptural support for what you believe. IOW, you could end up believing you are saved by faith in Christ and not realize that trusting Christ is what saves you.

 

[AVBunyan]

In point of fact, God DID inspire it.

God would not inspire a version that takes away from the person and work of his Son and picks at him like the NIV does.

If you can't see the differences maybe it is because you are having trouble "seeing":

You have eyes but see not. :doh:

 

[themuzicman]

AV continues to make the same error as brandplucked, in assuming that the KJV is inspired, and denigrating all that are around it, whenever they differ from the KJV.

Brandplucked already admitted that he has no proof that the KJV is inerrant and inspired.

Muz

 

[AVBunyan]

A little more NIV:

Rom 3
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference...

1. A righteousness? (not, the righteousness OF GOD?)

2. Through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe? (I don't understand)

1. Good point - the NIV often changes "the's" to "a's" in order to lead one to believe that there are many ways.

2. They won't understand - people think it is their faith that justifies. They just want to have some part in their salvation. :kookoo:

God bless

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

1. Good point - the NIV often changes "the's" to "a's" in order to lead one to believe that there are many ways.

2. They won't understand - people think it is their faith that justifies. They just want to have some part in their salvation. :kookoo:

God bless

22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe

This just doesn't make sense.

I think everyone should read Galatians 3 KJV 100 times tonight before they
go to sleep to find out who's faith is being talked about!

 

[AVBunyan]

I think everyone should read Galatians 3 KJV 100 times tonight before they go to sleep to find out who's faith is being talked about!

Amen and amen! :first:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does this make sense to you?

Gal 2:16 NIV

16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Yes

 

[AVBunyan]

Yes

That's because you think your faith justifies. This is works salvation. The AV says it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies. Only God can justify. Man's faith can justify nothing.

 

[AVBunyan]

It is real simple - faith of Christ says it is Christ's faith that justifies - Faith in says it is man's faith that justifies.

Now which one are you trusting?

Let's take away some more of your self-righteousness - Not only is it Christ's faith that justifies but according to Gal. 2:20 we live by Christ's faith also.

Gal. 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. :first:

But of course the MVs change faith of there to faith in thus making it your faith you live by.

The MVs just rob Christ of everything and give all the credit to sinful man - pitiful. :bang:

 

[CabinetMaker]

That's because you think your faith justifies. This is works salvation. The AV says it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies. Only God can justify. Man's faith can justify nothing.

It is real simple - faith of Christ says it is Christ's faith that justifies - Faith in says it is man's faith that justifies.

Now which one are you trusting?

Let's take away some more of your self-righteousness - Not only is it Christ's faith that justifies but according to Gal. 2:20 we live by Christ's faith also.

Gal. 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. :first:

But of course the MVs change faith of there to faith in thus making it your faith you live by.

The MVs just rob Christ of everything and give all the credit to sinful man - pitiful. :bang:

It is not mans faith that justifies, it is God's gift of faith to men that justifies.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[AVBunyan]

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Whose faith is it - your faith or from God?

 

[brandplucked]

God's Inspired Book - the King James Bible

God's Inspired Book - the King James Bible

AV continues to make the same error as brandplucked, in assuming that the KJV is inspired, and denigrating all that are around it, whenever they differ from the KJV.

Brandplucked already admitted that he has no proof that the KJV is inerrant and inspired.

Muz

Muz, you guys with no inerrant Bible can't seem to get your story straight, can you. CM tells us the NIV is inspired "just like all the others", and you essentially tell us that none of them are inspired. If CM's position is right then it is only logical to conclude that God inspires errors, totally different numbers and names in the same places, and He inspires wholesale omissions and other additions to the texts.

If you are right, then there is no such thing as an inspired and pure Bible. This is really what you believe but don't have the guts to come out and say it.

You say you believe God preserved His words, yet when asked to give us the verses that support your belief you completely cave in and give us nothing.

Then you come up with the outrageous and blatantly false claim that there are only 13 places where the text critics are not sure about the original readings. When asked to list these places for us and to back up this absurdity of yours, again you cave in and give us nothing.

By the way, I never said I was going to "prove" the King James Bible is the inspired and inerrant words of God. I said I was going to present the case why I and many thousands of others believe it to be so.

It's just like somebody saying they are going to "prove" the existence of God. Can't be done. Some will have ears to hear the logic and evidence for a Creator and others will not. Same thing with the Bible version issue. God said He would preserve His words, heaven and earth would pass away but not His words, and The Scripture cannot be broken. But you try to wiggle and squirm your way out of verses like this and apparently do not think they mean what they say.

You have no 'book of the Lord' to recommend or give anyone that you yourself believes to be the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God.

You look more than a little silly running around with no inspired Bible saying over and over again "Brandplucked didn't prove the KJV is the inerrant word of God", apparently thinking you have won some sort of hollow "victory".

If you are one of the best the No Bible Is Inerrant side has to offer, then I am more convinced than ever that the whole Bible version issue is a spiritual issue and not at all an intellectual one. God either opens a man's eyes to spiritual truth or He closes them, and if God blinds a man to truth there is no way on earth any mere man is going to open them.

The same divine principle is at work in this issue as in all others -

John 12:39-40
King James Bible


"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Will K

 

[brandplucked]

The faith of Christ

The faith of Christ

Whose faith is it - your faith or from God?

Hi AV. You are totally right and the NIV is a perversion of true doctrine.

The NIV says:

Gal 2:16 NIV

16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

"So we, too, HAVE PUT OUR FAITH IN Christ Jesus...."

Wrong!

The King James Bible has it right when it says "we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ".

The reason we believe is because God gives us the faith OF Christ. He and He alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

It is given unto us to believe - Philippians 1:29, and God blinds others so that they cannot believe - John 12:39-40.

God's true Book is always right.

Will K

 

[CabinetMaker]

Whose faith is it - your faith or from God?

It is God's gift of faith to me. My faith would not be enough and would be born of man. God's faith is a gift to me that is strong, much stronger than I could ever muster by myself.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Muz, you guys with no inerrant Bible can't seem to get your story straight, can you. CM tells us the NIV is inspired "just like all the others", and you essentially tell us that none of them are inspired. If CM's position is right then it is only logical to conclude that God inspires errors, totally different numbers and names in the same places, and He inspires wholesale omissions and other additions to the texts.

If you are right, then there is no such thing as an inspired and pure Bible. This is really what you believe but don't have the guts to come out and say it.

You say you believe God preserved His words, yet when asked to give us the verses that support your belief you completely cave in and give us nothing.

Then you come up with the outrageous and blatantly false claim that there are only 13 places where the text critics are not sure about the original readings. When asked to list these places for us and to back up this absurdity of yours, again you cave in and give us nothing.

By the way, I never said I was going to "prove" the King James Bible is the inspired and inerrant words of God. I said I was going to present the case why I and many thousands of others believe it to be so.

It's just like somebody saying they are going to "prove" the existence of God. Can't be done. Some will have ears to hear the logic and evidence for a Creator and others will not. Same thing with the Bible version issue. God said He would preserve His words, heaven and earth would pass away but not His words, and The Scripture cannot be broken. But you try to wiggle and squirm your way out of verses like this and apparently do not think they mean what they say.

You have no 'book of the Lord' to recommend or give anyone that you yourself believes to be the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God.

You look more than a little silly running around with no inspired Bible saying over and over again "Brandplucked didn't prove the KJV is the inerrant word of God", apparently thinking you have won some sort of hollow "victory".

If you are one of the best the No Bible Is Inerrant side has to offer, then I am more convinced than ever that the whole Bible version issue is a spiritual issue and not at all an intellectual one. God either opens a man's eyes to spiritual truth or He closes them, and if God blinds a man to truth there is no way on earth any mere man is going to open them.

The same divine principle is at work in this issue as in all others -

John 12:39-40
King James Bible


"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Will K

Two points. First, from Biblegateway.com, I searched the phrase "preserve word" in the KJV and came up with exactly one verse:
Proverbs 22:12
The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

I find it interesting that there is no verse where God said "I will preserve my word" let alone in the KJV. Maybe now would be a good time for you to present the verses you use to show God's promise to preserve His word. (And how He would preserve it would be nice too.)

Second: In your opening paragraph you said, "contacted me about presenting the case for the King James Bible as being the only complete, inerrant, preserved and 100% true Holy Bible on the earth today." You presented no scriptural case. You presented history, but nothing scriptural.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Hi AV. You are totally right and the NIV is a perversion of true doctrine.

The NIV says:

Gal 2:16 NIV

16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

"So we, too, HAVE PUT OUR FAITH IN Christ Jesus...."

Wrong!

The King James Bible has it right when it says "we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ".

The reason we believe is because God gives us the faith OF Christ. He and He alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

It is given unto us to believe - Philippians 1:29, and God blinds others so that they cannot believe - John 12:39-40.

God's true Book is always right.

Will K

SHow us why the NIV is wrong and the KJV is right. Show us why the KJV is the only translation that is acceptable to God.

 

[AVBunyan]

SHow us why the NIV is wrong and the KJV is right. Show us why the KJV is the only translation that is acceptable to God.

It is painfully obvious that you are either off or at least weak on the doctrine of justification by faith or you would see this issue of the "faith of" vs. "faith in"?

 

[brandplucked]

God has promised to preserve His words

God has promised to preserve His words

Two points. First, from Biblegateway.com, I searched the phrase "preserve word" in the KJV and came up with exactly one verse:
Proverbs 22:12
The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

I find it interesting that there is no verse where God said "I will preserve my word" let alone in the KJV. Maybe now would be a good time for you to present the verses you use to show God's promise to preserve His word. (And how He would preserve it would be nice too.)

Second: In your opening paragraph you said, "contacted me about presenting the case for the King James Bible as being the only complete, inerrant, preserved and 100% true Holy Bible on the earth today." You presented no scriptural case. You presented history, but nothing scriptural.

CM. You missed a few verses. As for "How" we are not told. He guides through events using sinful, fallen and imperfect men. If you say this is impossible, then who did He use to give us the "originals"?

In any event, the Bible believer believes that God has given us such a Book. The Bible denier is either an "originals only" with no inspired and inerrant Book now, or else he comes out with the absurd and mindless view that "all of them, no matter how different from each other in thousands of ways, are all somehow inspired and inerrant":dead:


Here are some facts taken directly from the Holy Bible. You do not need to be a scholar or seminary student to get a grasp of what the Bible says about itself. You either believe God or you don't.

The Bible believer first looks to God and His word to determine what the Book says about itself. The Bible cannot be clearer concerning it's preservation:

Isaiah 40:8: "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

Psalm 12:6-7: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Psalm 138:2: "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

Psalm 100:5: "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."

Psalm 33:11: "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations."

Psalm 119:152, 160: "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that Thou hast founded them for ever. ... thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Isaiah 59:21: "... My Spirit that is upon thee [Isaiah], and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

Matthew 5:17-18: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 24:35: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

John 10:35: "... the Scripture cannot be broken."

God has promised to preserve His wordS IN A BOOK here on this earth till heaven and earth pass away. He either did this and we can know where they are found today, or He lied and He lost some of them, and we can never be sure if what we are reading are the true words of God or not.

God's words are in a BOOK. Consider the following verses: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and NOTE IT IN A BOOK, that it may be for the time to come FOR EVER AND EVER." Isaiah 30:8

"Seek ye out of THE BOOK of the LORD, and READ: no one of these shall fail...for my mouth it hath commanded..." Isaiah 34:16

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of THE BOOK it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalm 40:7-8

"And if any man shall take away from THE WORDS OF THE BOOK of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK." Revelation 22:19


In and by His grace alone,

Will Kinney

 

[brandplucked]

Why I and many others are King James Bible onlyists

Why I and many others are King James Bible onlyists

I believe the King James Bible is the inspired, inerrant and complete words of God for the following reasons:

#1 The Old Testament is based solely on the Hebrew Masoretic texts, in contrast to the NASB, NIV, ESV, Holman CSB and other modern versions that frequently reject the Hebrew readings. The Old Testament oracles of God were committed to the Jews and not to the Syrians, the Greeks or the Latins. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-2) The Lord Jesus Christ said not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

See my two articles on how the modern versions all reject the Hebrew texts.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos.html

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos2.html

#2 The King James Bible alone is without proven error, and this in spite of intense opposition and criticism from the Bible correctors and modern scholarship.

"Seek ye out of THE BOOK of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail..." Isaiah 34:16.

#3 I believe in the Sovereignty and Providence of Almighty God. God knew beforehand how He would mightily use the King James Bible to become THE Bible of the English speaking people who would carry the gospel to the ends of the earth during the great modern missionary outreach from the late 1700's to the 1950's. The King James Bible was used as the basis for hundreds of foreign language translations, and English has become the first truly global language in history.

See article Can a Translation Be Inspired? http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

#4 The King James Bible is always a true witness and never lies or perverts sound doctrine. This is in contrast to all modern English versions that do pervert sound doctrine in numerous verses and prove themselves to be false witnesses to the truth of God.

"Thy word is true from the beginning, and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119:160

"A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies." Proverbs 14:5

In contrast, all the modern versions like the NASB, NIV, NKJV, ESV contain proveable and serious doctrinal errors. See my article on No Doctrines Are Changed?:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/nodoctrine.html

#5 At every opportunity the King James Bible exalts the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ to His rightful place as the sinless, eternally only begotten Son of God who is to be worshipped as being equal with God the Father. All modern versions debase and lower the Person of Christ in various ways.

"GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16. (compare this verse in the NIV, NASB, ESV, and Holman) See also John 3:13; Luke 23:42, and 1 Corinthians 15:47.

See article on The Only Begotten Son

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/begotnSon.html

#6 The explosion of modern versions has encouraged the student to pick and choose his own preferred readings and has created a tendency to treat every Bible lightly and to look upon none as the final words of God.

The Bible itself prophesies that in the last days many shall turn away their ears from hearing the truth and the falling away from the faith will occur. The Lord Jesus asks: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD." Amos 8:11

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jeremiah 6:16

The new versions like the NIV, NASB, ESV, and Holman Standard all reject the Traditional Greek Text, and instead rely primarily on two very corrupt Greek manuscripts called Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. These so called "oldest and best" manuscripts also form the basis of all Catholic versions as well as the Jehovah Witness version.

See my article that shows what these two false witnesses actually say:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/oldbest.html

If you mistakenly think that all bibles are basically the same, I recommend you take a look at this site. It is in two parts, but very easy to read. It shows what is missing in most modern New Testaments.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

I recently came across a blog link where a man made an in depth study of what is missing from the NIV New Testament when compared to the Traditional Greek Text of the King James Bible. It appears to be quite complete. Take a look. You will probably be surprised at what you see. Here is the link: http://rockymoore.com/ChristianLife/archive/2006/04/12/694.aspx

For an article showing that the true Historic Confessional position about the inerrancy of the Bible supports the King James Bible view, rather than the recent position of "the originals only". See:

http://www.geocities.com/avdefense1611/historicposition.html


All of grace,

Will K

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I believe the King James Bible is the inspired, inerrant and complete words of God for the following reasons:

Thank you for outlining your rationale.

#4 The King James Bible is always a true witness and never lies or perverts sound doctrine. This is in contrast to all modern English versions that do pervert sound doctrine in numerous verses and prove themselves to be false witnesses to the truth of God.

What is sound doctrine in your view? Arminianism? Open Theism? etc? What is your view on key doctrines that you would claim to be part of the "sound doctrine" corpus of the Scriptures e.g.,

1. Once saved always saved/perseverance of the saints?
2. Trinity (one God with three personal subsistences-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)?
3. Incarnation - Christ was fully man (including a human soul) and fully God, both joined in a mystical union that cannot be divided, separated, confused, or mixed.?
4. Original sin - all are condemned from birth due to Adam's fall unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
5. God is omniscient, exhaustively knowing past, present, and future?
6. God is atemporal, i.e., "outside of time"?
7. Salvation is by grace alone, by faith alone (not works), and by Christ alone?
8. The Scriptures and only the Scriptures (sola scriptura)?
9. Echatology - pre-millennial, amillennial, preterism?
10. Gifts of the Holy Spirit that have ceased since the Apostolic era? Tongues? Cessationism.
11. Dispensationalism or Covenantalism?

In other words, is there an agreed to common position among those that believe the KJV preserves all sound doctrines?If so, what is that position.

The new versions like the NIV, NASB, ESV, and Holman Standard all reject the Traditional Greek Text

What do you mean by the Traditional Greek Text? The UBS4/NA27?


Thank you.
AMR