Debunking the "most of the Founders were deist" untruth.

[Aimiel]

Yes, there still is slavery. India is the world leader in human trafficing, followed closely by the United States of Ameirca, in a close second. This is something that I hope the Obama administration takes more seriously than any previous administration has.

Source: http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2007/
Full report PDF: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/82902.pdf

 

[MacGyver]

Keep in mind not everyone was for slavery the way it was practiced here (there was a war, in case you didn't know). Most of the world for most of recorded history had some form of slavery, and it still goes on today.

My point was that the constitution can't have only worked for a moral people when slavery, bigotry, sexism, etc. were going on.

But, where do you stand on slavery? Do you see slavery as inherently immoral?

Do you see... what shall we call it? Patriarchal? Sexist? Do you see any of this as inherently immoral?

Yes.

Anyway, what have you found so far in your research on how many called themselves deist?

I haven't taken the time to manually go through each person and crosscheck it with the list in the OP, but most of what I have found tends to agree that deists were very few, and christianity (counting all the different sects) were majority.

However, I think allsmiles brought up a good point. What if a lot of them merely claimed to be christians to get farther politically? Think about today's America, a nonchristian would have an extremely hard time becoming president, or any other higher public office.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, there still is slavery. India is the world leader in human trafficing, followed closely by the United States of Ameirca, in a close second. This is something that I hope the Obama administration takes more seriously than any previous administration has.

Source: http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2007/
Full report PDF: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/82902.pdf

And don't forget, Britney Spears is a "Slave 4 U".

 

[skeptech]

I thought this might be useful in combatting the "most of the Founders were deist" untruth.

I don't know why people get so worked up about this. I guess it's interesting in a historical sense, and good to understand the context of what was done. But, as was already noted, affiliation doesn't prove belief, and, more importantly, the beliefs of the founders don't necessarily have any bearing on what we should believe now.

In fact, my understanding is that the founders intentionally set up the government in such a way that as the nation changed, so could its laws. This implies to me that the founders were expecting changes, certainly not demanding that their beliefs be mandated for eternity.

 

[Pukka Sahib]

. . .

 

[bybee]

Gee!

Gee!

I cannot help but laugh whenever someone resurrects the "founding fathers" for some improbable thesis in a vain effort to rewrite our history. Our so-called founding fathers, when viewed candidly, were colorful enough characters without our adding varnish to them. Franklin, who is considered to be the "First American" came close to forsaking hearth and home for England. Even Jefferson, with all his slaves (he owned over 600 during his lifetime), was hardly the liberal reformer we would have him be; and despite the efforts of modern-day Christians to convert him, the truth is that he was a deist, who had no qualms about revising the Bible to suit himself. See The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (1820). The "times that try men’s souls" bring out firebrands like Paine; who, if he was not a founding father, was certainly the midwife of American independence, and abetter to the overthrow of the French monarchy as well. Like Jesus, we would not be able to stand him. (Indeed, Paine was such a pain in the arse that he managed to make himself persona non grata in England, America and France!) Our perception of these characters is clouded by the dark glass of history, and distorted by attributions that represent so much wishful (rather than critical) thinking. It is like crediting Rembrandt’s paintings with depth of hue when their darkness is due to his using cheap paint.

Spoil sport! Monet, almost blind and Beethoven, almost deaf. Wagner, Nazi sympathizer. Of course there is St. Francis of Assisi, Mother Theresa, Sister Kenny, Nelson Mandela and so many more good folks. bybee

 

[Nineveh]

My point was that the constitution can't have only worked for a moral people when slavery, bigotry, sexism, etc. were going on.

The founders were mere mortals. They could and did err like the rest of us. As I pointed out, not everyone was for slavery. It might surprise you to note when the first black congressman took office. I'll leave that up to you to discover however.

Yes.

Really? By what measure do you judge?

I haven't taken the time to manually go through each person and crosscheck it with the list in the OP, but most of what I have found tends to agree that deists were very few, and christianity (counting all the different sects) were majority.

Let me know what you find out when you are done.

However, I think allsmiles brought up a good point. What if a lot of them merely claimed to be christians to get farther politically?

How about this "what if" scenario:

What if you took the time to investigate the reality of American History instead of just hopping onto the next "bandwagon" that comes your way? As you've learned for yourself so far, 6 doesn't equal "most". So maybe history could educate you a bit further so you don't wind up in another "history through hearsay" quagmire.

Think about today's America, a nonchristian would have an extremely hard time becoming president, or any other higher public office.

Those other 60 folks didn't seem to have much of a problem. But, looking over the landscape of today's America, all I see is how right the founders were.

 

[Nineveh]

I don't know why people get so worked up about this. I guess it's interesting in a historical sense, and good to understand the context of what was done. But, as was already noted, affiliation doesn't prove belief, and, more importantly, the beliefs of the founders don't necessarily have any bearing on what we should believe now.

The statement "most of our founder were deist" is inaccurate. You are free to believe whatever makes you feel comfortable. You may not change history, however. But for those who actually care about American History, the truth should be out there for those who want to know.

These men pledged their "lives, fortunes and sacred honor" for something. Back then it was to found a nation so people could be free. It wasn't so that 200+ years later we could use that freedom to try to force them to be something they were not.

In fact, my understanding is that the founders intentionally set up the government in such a way that as the nation changed, so could its laws. This implies to me that the founders were expecting changes, certainly not demanding that their beliefs be mandated for eternity.

Changes, yes. The founders were wise enough to know they were mere mortals that couldn't conceive of every possibility. But not to do away with the foundation of the framework (morality). Take a look at the 13 original constitutions for the states.

At any rate... There will be a "morality". The issue is who's will it be. Their's lead from horse and buggy to the moon. To one of the most prosperous and free nations ever to be on this planet.

But, now that we "educate" our children to be ignorant of American History, I wonder where we will wind up. From the looks of it... trillions in debt, moral decay.... where could that possibly lead.

 

[MacGyver]

The founders were mere mortals. They could and did err like the rest of us. As I pointed out, not everyone was for slavery. It might surprise you to note when the first black congressman took office. I'll leave that up to you to discover however.

1870. About 80 years after the constitution was adopted. So...my point still stands.

And I know they could and did err, and pointing out the flaw in Adam's quote was an example of that.

Really? By what measure do you judge?

We both agree that those things are immoral. It doesn't matter how I came to that conclusion. Not in this thread anyway.

How about this "what if" scenario:

What if you took the time to investigate the reality of American History instead of just hopping onto the next "bandwagon" that comes your way? As you've learned for yourself so far, 6 doesn't equal "most". So maybe history could educate you a bit further so you don't wind up in another "history through hearsay" quagmire.

You make it sound as if I asked the question and then just stopped thinking as if that would be the end of it. To be honest though, I don't know how I'd even go about solving this one. The only thing I can think of would be personal documents by these men that they kept secret, or at least kept within a small group of people they trusted. Those would be REALLY hard to find. But that's no reason to not look.

Those other 60 folks didn't seem to have much of a problem. But, looking over the landscape of today's America, all I see is how right the founders were.

Right about what?

And at least the other 60 believed in a god. Look at Thomas Paine though. He was abandoned by his friends and the public because of his writings about the inconsistencies of the Bible. There's no way he could've became president.

 

[WandererInFog]

You make it sound as if I asked the question and then just stopped thinking as if that would be the end of it. To be honest though, I don't know how I'd even go about solving this one. The only thing I can think of would be personal documents by these men that they kept secret, or at least kept within a small group of people they trusted. Those would be REALLY hard to find. But that's no reason to not look.

The problem of course is that there will exist no writing where it can be said with the certainty that the author wasn't adjusting their views to suit their audience. In the same manner that one could speculate that given author attempts to sound more religious than they actually were in order to please the general public, they could equally have been talking in a more rationalist manner in order to to please what they viewed as the biases of a smaller intellectual group they were addressing.

And at least the other 60 believed in a god. Look at Thomas Paine though. He was abandoned by his friends and the public because of his writings about the inconsistencies of the Bible. There's no way he could've became president.

Jefferson wrote at length about what he viewed as inconsistencies in the Bible and it hardly effected his political fortunes. What largely destroyed Paine was a combination of his involvement in the French Revolution, his criticism of the Constitution, and the near pathological hatred he developed of George Washington that together effectively cut him off from any serious influence in public life in the US.

 

[Nineveh]

1870. About 80 years after the constitution was adopted. So...my point still stands.

And I know they could and did err, and pointing out the flaw in Adam's quote was an example of that.

Adam's quote isn't the flaw. The flaw is "most of our founders were deist". The "flaw" is teaching the following generations that "deism" means godless or pagan. The issue isn't to keep making mistakes, but to fix them. It's silly to chuck the idea America needs morality because we hadn't yet shed ourselves of slavery. It's morality that fought the battle. It was a "morality" that fought back.

We both agree that those things are immoral. It doesn't matter how I came to that conclusion. Not in this thread anyway.

Sure it does. Your moral ground is just as important here as it is defending prostitution. What? Is your moral stand like a suit you change? Or is it more like your blood, something that is part of you?

You make it sound as if I asked the question and then just stopped thinking as if that would be the end of it. To be honest though, I don't know how I'd even go about solving this one. The only thing I can think of would be personal documents by these men that they kept secret, or at least kept within a small group of people they trusted. Those would be REALLY hard to find. But that's no reason to not look.

Nope, no secrets. I have books sitting on my shelf right now that expose the ideas of the founders both before and after the Constitution. American history only seem to be hidden from the generation that follows mine. Although, most of my American history has been learned through my own endeavor. Right here at TOL through debate I discovered quite a bit when forced to research the truthfulness of flippant comments.

But, something else I've learned...

I can't just hand out the answers because those who make historically ignorant comments are generally uninterested in the truth. So, instead of me giving answer (or time and effort) to such comments, I rather just point folks in the right direction to discover the info on their own, should they be genuinely interested.

To you, I would say, read the Federalist Papers, The Mayflower Compact, The Debates on the Constitution... When you are done with those, I'll offer more

Right about what?

As goes the morality of America, so goes the nation.

And at least the other 60 believed in a god.

How do you know?

Look at Thomas Paine though. He was abandoned by his friends and the public because of his writings about the inconsistencies of the Bible. There's no way he could've became president.

You aught to catch my blog. I posted a letter from Franklin to Paine (3rd post). After you read it, let me know what you got out of it.