Do you think Enoch died or just taken somewhere else?
What do think of Moses and Elijah.
The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch or any man of true faith, so I would not rely upon that.
LA
Did All Those Born Before Jesus Go To Hell ?
- Thread starter The Horn
- Start date
Do you think Enoch died or just taken somewhere else?
What do think of Moses and Elijah.
The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch or any man of true faith, so I would not rely upon that.
LA
I believe Enoch was "caught up" just like Saul, whose name was then changed to Paul, and Stephanos, who slept for the days, (the Lazarus days which are three days and the half) whose name was then changed to Stephanas after Saul immersed him in a hail of fiery stones, and Philip who was taken up and then later found to be in Azotus, and Job, who was probably taken up into the whirlwind and spoke with Elohim; even all those that are born from above, and this is part of the gospel of Paul which he received from the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua, (the book). All of these men shed their bodies, (the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of Yeshua). But before the resurrection of Yeshua all those of faith died, in faith, not having received the promise, just as the author of the epistle to the Hebrews says in what was quoted previously above. Those from before Messiah were clearly said to have been raised in Matthew 27:51-53. A great body of the Tanach saints came forth from the graves with the resurrection of Messiah and went up into the holy city, (Yerushalaim of above). Many of those were exhibited for all to see, as the passage says, like Hezekiah who was healed and then promised that he would go up into the house of YHWH in the Third Day. I have no doubt Hezekiah was one of those from Matthew 27:51-53 because he is exhibited in the writings for all to see and the promise was clearly foretold many years before Golgotha. As for the book of Enoch its validity was not the point. The point made has no bearing on whether you in this day and age choose to receive it or not. The point was that there were at one time many who did receive it because many fragments have been found at Qumran which are older than anything in the Apostolic writings, (in some cases by at least two hundred years). Those such as Jude who believed Enoch to be holy writ would in no way have believed that the author disappeared without a trace, taken "to heaven", in some sort of "physical bodily rapture", never to be seen or heard from again: for if that were true, he could not have written about it. Jude does not just quote from 1Enoch and say it is prophecy but rather calls Enoch a prophet and quotes from 1 Enoch. Essentially by default Jude is claiming that Enoch wrote it:
Jude 1:4a
4a. For there are certain men crept in unawares, even they who were of old time written of beforehand unto this condemnation:
Jude 1:14-15
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude does not say "the book of Enoch prophesied", no, but rather states as fact, "Enoch prophesied", and then goes on to quote from 1Enoch. The claim is explicit that those are the words of Enoch himself. Whether one wants to believe that statement or not is another question but that is the claim made by the epistle of Jude.
Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11:5. God transported Enoch to a place where he would not be found so that he wouldn't die where he was.
So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked faithfully with God, then he was no more because God took him away.(Genesis 5:23-24 NKJV)
These all died in faith including Enoch. (Hebrews 11:13 NKJV)
A "transportation" is not the same as a "translation" because a translation implies a transformation. This is critical because the author employs the same wording for the transformation of the law concerning the High Priesthood in Hebrews 7:12, (generally rendered as a "change" in the law which imo is a faulty rendering because the word "change" also now gives a false impression in modern English terms and the modern mindset).
If the point was to show that the book of 1Enoch is legitimate I would be quoting Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Yeshua, the Gospel authors and especially Luke, then Jude. However the amount of space that would be necessary for all of the evidence would require a new thread, and that was not the point to begin with, and not the theme of this thread.
based on what?
jon machtemes
New member
Here is what I know and understand from Scripture.
First, I would like to talk about hell a moment. There are 3 different words translated often as "hell" and two distinct words that many just take as synonyms for "hell". Hell is old English, (possibly derived from norse/germanic), and it means abode of the dead or a covering. The 5 terms or words either translated to "hell" or used as synonyms for such are: 1) sheol 2) hades 3) gehenna 4) tartarus 5) lake of fire. "Sheol" means the pit or grave and is synonymous with "Hades": Hades being used in the Septuagint and through the New Testament to mean just that...the grave, (both of them also denote a covering). Job was a righteous man and spoke of going to sheol. There are other examples, but I will leave it at that. "Gehenna", properly = "the valey of the sons of Hinnom" was a place where, for centuries, was used as a place where Isrealites sacrificed their children to the pagan god "Molech" and in Jesus' day was used as a garbage burning dump. Jesus only spoke of Gehenna to Jerusalem Jews, as did James once. In the valley of Hinnom they would try to keep the fires burning, but commonly this was difficult. When Jesus speaks of destruction and Gehenna it is a picture to the Jerusalem Jew of what He refers to in Matthew 25:41 "pyr to aionion" eternal fire. Gehenna was a picture of this eternal fire. This fire is eternal in its work: the judgement everlasting, but does this act of burning go on forever?...of that I am not fully convinced. "Tartarus" is again Greek in origin and implies more of a verb when used only once by Peter and it pertains to a place or state of the deepest gloomy darkness. The reason I believe Peter even uses "Tartarus" once is because it parralelled their own legends of where the Titans were imprisoned. I believe the usage also reenforces the Genesis 6 interpretation of "sons of God" as angles, or the angels who sinned. "Lake of Fire" or properly, "limnen tou pyros kai theiou"= lake of fire and sulfer, used specifically in Revelation, (a book of symbolism), is a place where the beast, false prophet, satan, death, and hades are all thrown into. Now that I got that out of my system, let me please say this: the wicked will be destroyed, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth on that great and terrible day, and you do not want to be at that judgement. Repent (turn away) from your sinfullness and believe on Jesus Christ, (the only begotten Son of God who paid for your sins on the cross and was raised from the dead), before it is too late and you go down to the pit or Christ returns and judges the living and the dead. Do I think the dead without Christ burn forever? No, I actually don't. Many will disagree and we can hash that out some other place. But as for the dead of the Old Testament: there were many from Adam to Christ who God justified and the Bible calls righteous. How is this so? The Bible also says "there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12. This is Christ Jesus. He is called the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world" Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:20. Since God "declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things not yet done" Isaiah 46:10, then from the creation the salvific work of Christ was ordained: it wasn't an "if, when", it was ordained by God and a present reality. Jesus life and victorious saving death was not plan b, it was ever plan a-z. Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins of all those who put their faith in God's redemption. In the OT they couldn't fully realize the way in which God would do this, but the OT saints believed God and this was counted to them for righteousness. That righteousness could only come from one source= the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no such thing as Old Testament wrath and New Testament grace. The Bible tells the whole story of God and man: Christ in the OT forshadowed is in the NT revealed and any moment now He will be revealed in all His glory from the skies: coming on the clouds with all power and authority to judge the living and the dead. I urge you to please turn from your sin and believe on Him before its too late. One day the dead without Christ will be raised, judged, and they and their sinful works will be burned up and consumed. I don't believe God to be a sadist, and do not see judgement as being forever in torment, but the judgement is eternal. You can either perish in flame with your works or live eternally with the God who is so loving as to give His only begotten Son to be abused, mocked, rejected, and crucified for those who are his enemies= you and I. Jesus said, "eternal life is to know the Father and the Son" John 17:3. NOTE: The spirits Jesus preached to in prison, before His bodily ressurection, were the same mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, "the angels who sinned". Reference that with 1 Peter 3:19-20. God bless you.
First, I would like to talk about hell a moment. There are 3 different words translated often as "hell" and two distinct words that many just take as synonyms for "hell". Hell is old English, (possibly derived from norse/germanic), and it means abode of the dead or a covering. The 5 terms or words either translated to "hell" or used as synonyms for such are: 1) sheol 2) hades 3) gehenna 4) tartarus 5) lake of fire. "Sheol" means the pit or grave and is synonymous with "Hades": Hades being used in the Septuagint and through the New Testament to mean just that...the grave, (both of them also denote a covering). Job was a righteous man and spoke of going to sheol. There are other examples, but I will leave it at that. "Gehenna", properly = "the valey of the sons of Hinnom" was a place where, for centuries, was used as a place where Isrealites sacrificed their children to the pagan god "Molech" and in Jesus' day was used as a garbage burning dump. Jesus only spoke of Gehenna to Jerusalem Jews, as did James once. In the valley of Hinnom they would try to keep the fires burning, but commonly this was difficult. When Jesus speaks of destruction and Gehenna it is a picture to the Jerusalem Jew of what He refers to in Matthew 25:41 "pyr to aionion" eternal fire. Gehenna was a picture of this eternal fire. This fire is eternal in its work: the judgement everlasting, but does this act of burning go on forever?...of that I am not fully convinced. "Tartarus" is again Greek in origin and implies more of a verb when used only once by Peter and it pertains to a place or state of the deepest gloomy darkness. The reason I believe Peter even uses "Tartarus" once is because it parralelled their own legends of where the Titans were imprisoned. I believe the usage also reenforces the Genesis 6 interpretation of "sons of God" as angles, or the angels who sinned. "Lake of Fire" or properly, "limnen tou pyros kai theiou"= lake of fire and sulfer, used specifically in Revelation, (a book of symbolism), is a place where the beast, false prophet, satan, death, and hades are all thrown into. Now that I got that out of my system, let me please say this: the wicked will be destroyed, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth on that great and terrible day, and you do not want to be at that judgement. Repent (turn away) from your sinfullness and believe on Jesus Christ, (the only begotten Son of God who paid for your sins on the cross and was raised from the dead), before it is too late and you go down to the pit or Christ returns and judges the living and the dead. Do I think the dead without Christ burn forever? No, I actually don't. Many will disagree and we can hash that out some other place. But as for the dead of the Old Testament: there were many from Adam to Christ who God justified and the Bible calls righteous. How is this so? The Bible also says "there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12. This is Christ Jesus. He is called the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world" Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:20. Since God "declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things not yet done" Isaiah 46:10, then from the creation the salvific work of Christ was ordained: it wasn't an "if, when", it was ordained by God and a present reality. Jesus life and victorious saving death was not plan b, it was ever plan a-z. Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins of all those who put their faith in God's redemption. In the OT they couldn't fully realize the way in which God would do this, but the OT saints believed God and this was counted to them for righteousness. That righteousness could only come from one source= the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no such thing as Old Testament wrath and New Testament grace. The Bible tells the whole story of God and man: Christ in the OT forshadowed is in the NT revealed and any moment now He will be revealed in all His glory from the skies: coming on the clouds with all power and authority to judge the living and the dead. I urge you to please turn from your sin and believe on Him before its too late. One day the dead without Christ will be raised, judged, and they and their sinful works will be burned up and consumed. I don't believe God to be a sadist, and do not see judgement as being forever in torment, but the judgement is eternal. You can either perish in flame with your works or live eternally with the God who is so loving as to give His only begotten Son to be abused, mocked, rejected, and crucified for those who are his enemies= you and I. Jesus said, "eternal life is to know the Father and the Son" John 17:3. NOTE: The spirits Jesus preached to in prison, before His bodily ressurection, were the same mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, "the angels who sinned". Reference that with 1 Peter 3:19-20. God bless you.
so where did they go?
jon machtemes
New member
If the question means "where did and do those souls go who have not Christ?" Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten." The dead are just that. They are dead. Those without Christ await the great and terrible day judgement in which they and their works will be utterly consumed. Now, this part is just comment and speculative, but based on all my reading of Scripture we know since the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life, that life is not assured to all, but only those in Christ. This in no way should comfort the wicked, they will be judged. But I believe it is shown that they are dead and reserved for that great day. Peter said, in 2 Peter 3:19, "Christ died once for sin". If the punishment was to last for all eternity for sin than why did his DEATH satisfy that punishment? And so yes, I believe the Bible teaches that the dead are dead and those whom Christ has made alive are alive. This is also speculative, but, for the most part (with perhaps some exceptions, i.e. Enoch, Elisha, perhaps Moses), when one dies I believe their next concious moment is in eternity. Time and eternity aren't compatible, so I don't know the exactness of how it works out, but I believe the dead will be raised, immediately after they expire, to the judgement. Quick answer, but you know, since many hold to a belief that requires eternal concious torment, this subject needs its own seperate discussion.
They were all totally depraved. Some of them were unconditionally elected to citizenship in heaven. The Blood of Christ is Limited for the elected irregardless of time. The elect have an irrefutable call to Grace and cannot resist no matter nationality or background or religious affiliation. These people are preserved for all time. They never tasted the second death as it never had any power over them no matter when they lived on earth.
Did All Those Born Before Jesus Go To Hell ?
you can see how they all struggle with this question
and
for most it is a real problem for their theology
they can't really answer the question
because
they really do not understand why Jesus did what He did
the answer is very simple
no one could be saved until Jesus did what He did
so
what happened to all the good people before that?
they went to hades until they could be saved
what about the others?
here is a clue
Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
you can see how they all struggle with this question
and
for most it is a real problem for their theology
they can't really answer the question
because
they really do not understand why Jesus did what He did
the answer is very simple
no one could be saved until Jesus did what He did
so
what happened to all the good people before that?
they went to hades until they could be saved
what about the others?
here is a clue
Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
From the perspective of a Bible believer. You can not say they have all gone to Hell. At the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, Moses and Elijah were with Him. They were not in Hell. One can only presume they were in Heaven with their Father before and after that moment.
Jesus said narrow is the road that leads to life with Him and few find it. The road could only have been exponentially more narrow before Him.
We can complain why didn't Jesus come sooner, or be thankful that He did. Obviously God knew the right time for His arrival and He worked painstakingly hard to create a people for Him to come through.
are you confused?
saying
Jesus made it easier to get to heaven
that is what you just said
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
His sacrifice can bring us near to Him if we trust Him.
"Therefore, brothers, since we have cofidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He opened for us through the curtain, that is through His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:19-22
The new covenant replaces the old, as it is better as Hebrews aptly explains. The new covenant also includes the Gentiles.
If you believe God's word Moses and Elijah were not in Hell. They were with the Father and Jesus in His Glory at the transfiguration.
Yes they all went to Sheol or Hades.
Sheol had three compartments.
Paradise where the saved went (where Jesus went to loose them and bring them to heaven)
Tartarus where some fallen angels are held
Hades where the unbelievers still go
What shall we do with Revelation 13:8?