Does man have a freewill ?

JudgeRightly

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A person may be innocent from a crime, but that doesnt mean they arent a sinner

Why in the world would you think I'm talking about crime, b57?

All crimes (that are actually crimes) are sin!

Babies are innocent of ALL SIN!

Babies are innocent from the standpoint that they havent developed yet to actually commit iniquity,

That's LITERALLY ALL THAT MATTERS, BELOVED57!

The very fact that they HAVE NOT COMMITTED ANY SIN means they are, BY DEFINITION, INNOCENT!

though its there in them.

No, there is NO SIN in an innocent baby, by definition.

Their sinful heart is merely undeveloped.

They do not have a sinful heart, because they are INNOCENT!

Babies are unclean /defiled

NO THEY'RE NOT! SHAME ON YOU for EVEN CONSIDERING the notion that babies are "unclean or defiled," let alone asserting it!

Job 14:4
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Sinners produce sinners !

This verse does not say what you want it to say.
 

beloved57

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The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation especially is actually a denial of the Gospel of Gods Grace. A few reasons why I say that. It denies that God is God. It promotes the false concept that God cant do what He wants with man in salvation unless man allows Him to, Yet the God of scripture is described here Ps 115:3

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. The word pleased here means:

will, desire


Ps 135:6

6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Salvation is by the Sovereign will and Grace of God Eph 1:4-5,11

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Whatever God pleases to do He does, because God is God, yet the false doctrine of mans freewill denies this !


Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

Clete

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The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation especially is actually a denial of the Gospel of Gods Grace.
Translation: If you're not a Calvinist, you're not saved.

A few reasons why I say that. It denies that God is God.
No, it doesn't do any such stupid thing.

It promotes the false concept that God cant do what He wants with man in salvation unless man allows Him to
It doesn't do that either!

On the contrary. Those who discard Calvinism as the blasphemous heresy that it is know that God dispenses His grace to those who respond to Him in faith because He WANTS to do so. That's the way God WANTS it set up and that's the reason why He set it up that way!

, Yet the God of scripture is described here Ps 115:3

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. The word pleased here means:

will, desire


Ps 135:6

6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
That's right, God does precisely what He wants when He wants to do it. He answers to no authority but His own righteous character.

He wanted to create mankind with a free will so that He could have a real loving relationship with that creation and so He did so.

When His creation rebelled, God wanted to provide a remedy so that loving relationship might be salvaged for those who will, so He did so, at great personal expense and difficulty, I might add.

When He decides that the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, then He will return to Israel and not only complete Daniel's 70th week but do so in a manner that exalts and brings honor to the Law. Not because He has to but because God is well pleased, not with His arbitrary nature, not with His power, not with His knowledge but He is well pleased for His righteousness!

Salvation is by the Sovereign will and Grace of God Eph 1:4-5,11
Watch out for the Calvinist's vernacular. The words they use don't mean in their heads what they mean in a normal person's head.

For "Sovereign" read "absolute total control freak" and for "Grace" read "utterly causeless arbitrary selection".

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Biblical predestination has to do with groups, not specific individuals. Those who enter into Christ (a.k.a. the Body of Christ) are predestined to glory because He is predestined to glory. His righteousness has been imputed to us and thus so also has been His destiny. No one forced God to set it up this way. This has been God's own plan from the very beginning.

Whatever God pleases to do He does, because God is God, yet the false doctrine of mans freewill denies this !
Just as saying it doesn't make it so, repeating it doesn't either. If any thing, repetition of stupidity just multiplies the stupidity.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Are you trying to tell me that Nebuchadnezzar deserves credit for getting his understanding back by virtue of having lifted his eyes up to heaven?

Was that really the verse you wanted to quote?

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Amen! There isn't a syllable of my doctrine that contradicts the sovereignty of God in anyway unless you've redefined the word 'sovereign" to mean something other than "highest authority" which is actually what the word means. God answers to no one and is moved to action by nothing other than His own righteous character and judgment.

He is not the arbitrary control freak you and your Calvinist teachers would have us believe. If He were, He would be unjust, by definition.

Clete
 

JudgeRightly

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The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation especially is actually a denial of the Gospel of Gods Grace.

No, it's not.

A few reasons why I say that.

You say it in error.

It denies that God is God.

No, it doesn't.

It promotes the false concept that God cant do what He wants with man in salvation unless man allows Him to.

No, it doesn't promote that.

Yet the God of scripture is described here Ps 115:3

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

The verse doesn't say what you want it to say, nor does it contradict the concept of wills being free.

The word pleased here means:

will, desire

God being able to do what He pleases does not mean that man's will is not free.

Ps 135:6

6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

The verse doesn't say what you want it to say, nor does it contradict the concept of wills being free.

Salvation is by the Sovereign will and Grace of God

Define "Sovereign."

If you think it means anything other than "possessing supreme or ultimate power," then by definition, you're wrong.

Eph 1:4-5,11

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The passage does not say what you want it to say, nor does it falsify the concept of wills being free.

Whatever God pleases to do He does, because God is God,

No one has said otherwise.

yet the false doctrine of mans freewill denies this !

No, it doesn't.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

The passage does not say what you want it to say, nor does it contradict the notion that wills are free.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation denies mans spiritual inability in that by nature he is dead to God.

Sure man has a physical life, but naturally he has no spiritual life, being alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Coupled with this alienation from the life of God is a darkened understanding, and blindness of heart

The word alienated means:

  1. to be shut out from one's fellowship and intimacy

Paul wrote to the Ephesians that prior to their quickening, they were dead in sin Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The word dead nekros:

    1. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
  1. metaph.
    1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
    2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

All the above applies to us by nature spiritually

Notice inactive as regards doing right, that is spiritually. It agrees with Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Now being dead spiritually to God, inactive, how can a person be free to do the good things like hearing the word of God, understanding it, faith in God, repentance toward God.

Freewill denies being dead to God spiritually by nature.
 

JudgeRightly

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The false teaching of mans freewill

It's not false. And again, if it's not free, then it's not a will.

in the matter of salvation denies mans spiritual inability in that by nature he is dead to God.

No. Again, free will is not a superpower. Just because a man is free to choose doesn't mean he can save himself.

Sure man has a physical life, but naturally he has no spiritual life, being alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

The verse doesn't say what you want it to say.

Coupled with this alienation from the life of God is a darkened understanding, and blindness of heart

Thank God that He provided light, and that His gospel enables people to see that light.

The word alienated means:

  1. to be shut out from one's fellowship and intimacy

So what?

Paul wrote to the Ephesians that prior to their quickening, they were dead in sin Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The verses do not say what you want them to say.

The word dead nekros:

    1. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
  1. metaph.
    1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
    2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

Yawn.

All the above applies to us by nature spiritually

Spiritually dead does not mean corpse-like inability to do anything.

It just means we are separated from God.

Notice inactive as regards doing right, that is spiritually.

Your grammar is terrible, by the way.

It agrees with Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul was rephrasing something in the Old Testament. I recommend you go read that.

But guess what! The verse STILL doesn't say what you want it to say.

Now being dead spiritually to God, inactive, how can a person be free to do the good things like hearing the word of God, understanding it, faith in God, repentance toward God.

How? By a preacher preaching, the spiritually dead hearing, and then believing. Romans 10.

Freewill denies being dead to God spiritually by nature.

No, it doesn't.
 
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