God wants YOU to prosper

[Totton Linnet]

Giving to the poor is more important than giving to anyone else. Notice that Jesus or his disciples ever said give to the church. It makes good sense to help pay expenses for upkeep, but the pastor should find a job just as you and I do. The Lord will provide.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Is it true? is that what you see with Peter? we know Paul worked with his hands among the Corinthians in order to set an example and to establish a testimony....he also had a partnership going with the Phillipians and other churches. He called it a partnership of giving and RECIEVING, see the bible is not give, give, give, nowhere is it, always God is no man's debtor.

Paul does not bind such hard conditions on others, "let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they that labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, and the labourer is worthy of his reward"

Could Peter have carried on as fisherman, did the Lord carry on as carpenter...if you had the opportunity of winning thousands of souls to the Lord daily would you not wish to be fully engaged in that and that alone? it takes more than just preaching sermons to save a soul.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I know it will offend you, God's word always come with much offence.

When we say to the sinnerman "sinnerman be righteous" he takes great offence at us, so also when we say "sickman arise and be well" it will kindle anger. So also when we find the beggar sat in his stink and say "beggarman gird yourself to sit among princes" great offence is caused.

mericans are offended, who have so much and seems to know so little.

Yes FIRST we must attend to our spiritual condition, "seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness" that's the rule but then "ALL these things shall be added unto YOU"

"Things"

God has sent forth His great Apostle Paul to teach us and lead us into the way of prosperity, he sets forth God's plan in his epistles.

So, do you adhere to the "Prosperity Message?" You seem to appear to be "Anti-American?"

 

[Totton Linnet]

Matthew 6:19-21;25-33
Romans 8:5-7

This is exactly what we are talking about GIVING...Do you have a bank account Lon ?[dear brother ] then you are laying up treasures for yourself on earth, your balance may not be attacked by moths but how does the current bank rate suit you? inflation.

If you felt God call you tonight into full time ministry what sort of personal crisis will this cause? are you FREE? can you do what James and John did at the drop of a hat and leave their father and the business behind...there was a secure business there.

As usual you are so heavenly minded my dear brother, never a care for the flesh you. If the Lord does ever send you out on a little mission you will soon encounter the needs of the flesh. You will get a shock, you will discover that we are not just spirits floating along but we are spirits indwelling fleshly bodies.

Don't worry, I am sure you will arise to any challenge if the Lord calls.

Jesus concerns Himself, once when the people had been following Him for 3 days He was afraid they would faint on the way so He arranged for a great fish supper in the wilderness.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Matthew 6:19-21;25-33
Romans 8:5-7

Do you attend church? do you give to the ministry and the upkeep of the church and for outreach and missions?

Of course you do.

 

[Lon]

Do you attend church? do you give to the ministry and the upkeep of the church and for outreach and missions?

Of course you do.

1Timothy 6:10 Mark 8:35

As usual you are so heavenly minded my dear brother, never a care for the flesh you. If the Lord does ever send you out on a little mission you will soon encounter the needs of the flesh. You will get a shock, you will discover that we are not just spirits floating along but we are spirits indwelling fleshly bodies.

This too shall be added. It isn't up to me to provide for a ministry God has called me to. It is up to Him to make those callings happen.
I can make tents (well, houses).

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

TL, I'll make you a deal, you stay in merry old England and we Americans will stay here. How about that?

 

[Totton Linnet]

1Timothy 6:10 Mark 8:35

This too shall be added. It isn't up to me to provide for a ministry God has called me to. It is up to Him to make those callings happen.
I can make tents (well, houses).

Many Christians love their money too much to give as they ought or could give, this is the root of great lack in providing for God's work.

You are skirting the issue.

If you say God will provide then you are talking about prosperity..i.e. He will prosper you in the way in which He has called you. Do you believe Billy Graham could have worked at making tents? or John Wesley...Spurgeon

 

[iamaberean]

Paul does not bind such hard conditions on others, "let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they that labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, and the labourer is worthy of his reward"

Don't look at everything as money, one doesn't have to get double honor by way of money.

The Apostles were evangelists, they had no church. They needed money to pay for their needs. That requires money. No problem there. A pastor lives in the same area as the church, no reason they can't work.

The problem comes in the definition of church as being a big building where people gather. That is not the way it was at the start, church was some one's home, more personal and I believe caring. I have been to those a time or two and everyone gets involved, even teaching is rotated.

 

[Lon]

Many Christians love their money too much to give as they ought or could give, this is the root of great lack in providing for God's work.

You are skirting the issue.

If you say God will provide then you are talking about prosperity..i.e. He will prosper you in the way in which He has called you. Do you believe Billy Graham could have worked at making tents? or John Wesley...Spurgeon

There are many instances of God taking care of those without finances in both Testaments as well as in mission stories. George Muller for instance, didn't make a dime but millions passed through his hands to build and sustain orphanages. I try to believe scripture and not get caught up in it. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. With Him rich, my own needs are assured. We really need to be more worried about His business more than 'our' business. I can't think you'd disagree with any scripture I've posted or any post I've given in thread. It is all biblical, and spiritual.

As a pastor, I didn't worry about tithes. God, as my employer, is able to pay for the job description He gives. I either suppose it is all His, or I suppose I have to earn a salary for Him. When Paul didn't make bank, he made tents. He was at peace in both poverty and great wealth. Revelation 3:17-20 2 Corinthians 8:9 Luke 6:20
Php 4:11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.
Php 4:12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Php 4:14 Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble.

 

[Totton Linnet]

There are many instances of God taking care of those without finances in both Testaments as well as in mission stories. George Muller for instance, didn't make a dime but millions passed through his hands to build and sustain orphanages. I try to believe scripture and not get caught up in it. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. With Him rich, my own needs are assured. We really need to be more worried about His business more than 'our' business. I can't think you'd disagree with any scripture I've posted or any post I've given in thread. It is all biblical, and spiritual.

As a pastor, I didn't worry about tithes. God, as my employer, is able to pay for the job description He gives. I either suppose it is all His, or I suppose I have to earn a salary for Him. When Paul didn't make bank, he made tents. He was at peace in both poverty and great wealth. Revelation 3:17-20 2 Corinthians 8:9 Luke 6:20
Php 4:11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.
Php 4:12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Php 4:14 Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble.

What you do is magnify the downside and leave out the good news part which is needful and would be a great blessing to the poorer brethren, you are in the "give, give, give" brigade, but that is not bible, I would like you to be a little more balanced and say with our Lord "give and it will be given you again, good measure...."

I do declare you is more spiritual than God.

Nor do you actually answer the points I put to you...you just think I need a lecture, I can speak like Paul for I too know how to go without, to suffer want, I have loved the Lord with nothing but the clothes I was wearing....more than once or twice given away my last quid. I am here to tell YOU that God provides and not only so His supply is ABUNDANT and if need be miraculous.

You left off the verse to the Phillipians when Paul says "it is not that I care so much for the gift but I look for the reward" it was a ministry of giving and receiving THAT is the right balance for the gospel minister to take.

"Remember" he told the Corinthians he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly....God is able to make his grace BOUND toward you that you having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work

And if Paul was harsh with himself to set a testimony for himself [to the glory of God] he was not harsh with others for what was this collection for but to ease the poverty of the saints in Jerusalem GOD CARES about poverty.

And Paul said it was only right since the Gentiles had been blest spiritually by the Jews that they in return should reach out to them in return with MATERIAL needs.

This is like your war against healing, you are too spiritual to care about such trifles....then you say "I haven't been well enough of late to post" never mind you are in good company Spurgeon would pooh pooh miracles...but just look at the toll to his own ministry sickness took, he was more times out of the pulpit than it.

I am not sure you would approve of Jesu's ministry if He came to your town.

Paul went without but he did not begrudge Peter and the others leading his wife around, Peter + wife = home comforts.

I reject your one sided gospel for the more balanced bible doctrine.

George Muller PROVED that God IS concerned with feeding His poor ones and kitting them out with nice clothes....and souls are saved, the testimony of it [as with the Salvation Army] glorifies God. When people get healed souls get saved.

India might have received this gospel centuries ago

 

[Totton Linnet]

Don't look at everything as money, one doesn't have to get double honor by way of money.

The Apostles were evangelists, they had no church. They needed money to pay for their needs. That requires money. No problem there. A pastor lives in the same area as the church, no reason they can't work.

The problem comes in the definition of church as being a big building where people gather. That is not the way it was at the start, church was some one's home, more personal and I believe caring. I have been to those a time or two and everyone gets involved, even teaching is rotated.

Yes that is ok but if you want a John Wesley campaign and really get to winning souls or a Billy Graham then something else is needed. The reformation could only really take off in the 16th century with the advent of print and printing cost money.

I would say if you have a vision for what God wants...it will cost money

 

[Lon]

What you do is magnify the downside and leave out the good news part which is needful and would be a great blessing to the poorer brethren, you are in the "give, give, give" brigade, but that is not bible, I would like you to be a little more balanced and say with our Lord "give and it will be given you again, good measure...."

Colossians 1:16, it is, imho, about focus between the primary and what is secondary. Read Matthew 6:31-34 Is it still a command for us today? Yes? No? See then James 5:1-3 and James 4:13-15

I do declare you is more spiritual than God.

Matthew 6:31-34 Is it still a command for us today? Yes? No?

Nor do you actually answer the points I put to you...you just think I need a lecture, I can speak like Paul for I too know how to go without, to suffer want, I have loved the Lord with nothing but the clothes I was wearing....more than once or twice given away my last quid. I am here to tell YOU that God provides and not only so His supply is ABUNDANT and if need be miraculous.

Well 1) no, not a lecture and 2) yes, I actually did address your points: Again, it is about focus on primary and secondary concerns imho. Again, Matthew 6:31-34 Yes? No?

You left off the verse to the Phillipians when Paul says "it is not that I care so much for the gift but I look for the reward" it was a ministry of giving and receiving THAT is the right balance for the gospel minister to take.

You are not alone. I've had pastors rip me a new one for my stance. For me, again, it is 'settling' for second-best to lose focus from Him and focus on the gift rather than the Giver John 6:26

"Remember" he told the Corinthians he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly....God is able to make his grace BOUND toward you that you having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work

Monetary? :nono: Stewardship is certainly important, but again, imho, we are talking about primary vs. secondary concerns.

And if Paul was harsh with himself to set a testimony for himself [to the glory of God] he was not harsh with others for what was this collection for but to ease the poverty of the saints in Jerusalem GOD CARES about poverty.

There are believers who are very poor in Africa and other countries of poverty. Imho, there is too much emphasis in many ministries on secondary concerns. As I said, I've had pastors reprimand me on this. I understand where you are coming from, I just believe Matthew 6:31-34 is a command I must follow and that it crosses all systematic theology platforms. I realize there is disagreement. These posts of mine are not to argue the point but provide my scriptural rationale for disagreement. I realize I'm in a minorit

And Paul said it was only right since the Gentiles had been blest spiritually by the Jews that they in return should reach out to them in return with MATERIAL needs.

Realize, again, for me this is secondary. I ever am given wealth to pass it along and give it away, therefore my blessing is never material because it doesn't stay in my hands. I'm not wealthy simply because I give it away.

This is like your war against healing, you are too spiritual to care about such trifles....then you say "I haven't been well enough of late to post" never mind you are in good company Spurgeon would pooh pooh miracles...but just look at the toll to his own ministry sickness took, he was more times out of the pulpit than it.

Again, primary vs. secondary concerns as well as spiritual vs. flesh that I'd 'make provision' for against scripture. Again, I'm giving my understanding. I realize we are at odds here.

I am not sure you would approve of Jesu's ministry if He came to your town.

John 6:26, remember? It is, imho, about focus contrast here. Luke 10:42
Paul went without but he did not begrudge Peter and the others leading his wife around, Peter + wife = home comforts.

I reject your one sided gospel for the more balanced bible doctrine.

You are not alone.

George Muller PROVED that God IS concerned with feeding His poor ones and kitting them out with nice clothes....and souls are saved, the testimony of it [as with the Salvation Army] glorifies God. When people get healed souls get saved.

Hudson Taylor went to China with nothing. Again Luke 10:42 and Matthew 6:31-34 for me.

India might have received this gospel centuries ago

For the most part, it is about whether God takes care of these things. In a nutshell: $$$ happens for the servant of God. It is just and only something to go through my fingers spent where moth and rust cannot destroy. Think of it this way from my perspective: I'm not really against your prosperity view, but on it hyperactively: I believe God prospers so much that 1) I don't collect it for tomorrow like manna and quail, and 2) It is so common place that it nearly blasé~ to talk about it and a loss of focus for me to do so. I just isn't important AND a given that I don't need to talk much about. It is like "prosperity" on steroids if you will that is it just not supposed to be a concern as far as I theologically understand.

Summary: Not so much a confrontation or a sermon, but rather voicing the other side of the concerns as well as providing and explaining the scriptures I try to live by. It certainly has us focused differently in our make up and concerns. -Lon

 

[Totton Linnet]

Primary and secondary hogwash my brother. If you are too sick to fulfil your calling, then sickness being in the flesh has become a spiritual matter, there is no dichotomy, except you make one.

I think it is because of unbelief and hardness of heart.

When Jesus stood the man with the withered hand in front of the people He asked "is it right to do good or evil on the Sabbath, to give life or to destroy life" And He was met with a stoney silence for they were waiting for an opportunity.

The bible says He looked around Him in anger, grieved at their hardness of heart. Could it be that God looks with anger upon the church? notwithstanding that they are saved.

One day they were in the boat and Jesus said "beware the leaven of the Scribes and Herodians" and they discussed it among themselves saying "we brought no bread"

He got quite cross about it, "why are you talking about bread? don't you remember the 5,000 and how many baskets there were? don't you yet perceive, are you still without understanding? and don't you remember the 4000 and what was left over? don't you understand?"

He said it over and over again until they perceived He was talking about Lon's doctrine

The doctrine of religious philosophy and politics, the way which seems right unto a man.

But Christ's doctrine produces, it will feed, it will clothe, it will heal and deliver...it will meet human need.

And it says they did not understand because their hearts were hardened.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Primary and secondary hogwash my brother. If you are too sick to fulfil your calling, then sickness being in the flesh has become a spiritual matter, if you are too poor. There is no dichotomy, except you make one.

I think it is because of unbelief and hardness of heart.

When Jesus stood the man with the withered hand in front of the people He asked "is it right to do good or evil on the Sabbath, to give life or to destroy life" And He was met with a stoney silence for they were waiting for an opportunity.

The bible says He looked around Him in anger, grieved at their hardness of heart. Could it be that God looks with anger upon the church? notwithstanding that they are saved.

One day they were in the boat and Jesus said "beware the leaven of the Scribes and Herodians" and they discussed it among themselves saying "we brought no bread"

He got quite cross about it, "why are you talking about bread? don't you remember the 5,000 and how many baskets there were? don't you yet perceive, are you still without understanding? and don't you remember the 4000 and what was left over? don't you understand?"

He said it over and over again until they perceived He was talking about Lon's doctrine

The doctrine of religious philosophy and politics, the way which seems right unto a man.

But Christ's doctrine produces, it will feed, it will clothe, it will heal and deliver...it will meet human need.

And it says they did not understand because their hearts were hardened.

India has languished in abject poverty for hundreds and hundreds of years because the west has failed to connect their prosperity with the gospel....we thought it was our different outlook, our politicians and entrepreneurship which brought prosperity.

Wherever the gospel has gone prosperity has followed it in the bye

Yes, yes blasé [yawn] such talk is such a bore for such a spiritual person as yourself...floating on a cloud as you do. You speak about healing in the same vain and then complain that you are sick

By the way, someone will say I am heated and my answers are unkind...I assure you I am not...I am answering you in kind, in fact this discussion is the discussion the evangelicals and the Pentecostals have been having these last 100 years.

It is where the contention is at. And underlying it all is our respective views on the millennium. It goes to the very heart and core of what the gospel is all about. The good news about the kingdom of God.

You are still my brother and I love you.

 

[patrick jane]

India has languished in abject poverty for hundreds and hundreds of years because the west has failed to connect their prosperity with the gospel....we thought it was our different outlook, our politicians and entrepreneurship which brought prosperity.

Wherever the gospel has gone prosperity has followed it in the bye

Yes, yes blasé [yawn] such talk is such a bore for such a spiritual person as yourself...floating on a cloud as you do. You speak about healing in the same vain and then complain that you are sick

By the way, someone will say I am heated and my answers are unkind...I assure you I am not...I am answering you in kind, in fact this discussion is the discussion the evangelicals and the Pentecostals have been having these last 100 years.

It is where the contention is at. And underlying it all is our respective views on the millennium. It goes to the very heart and core of what the gospel is all about. The good news about the kingdom of God.

You are still my brother and I love you.

Who you talkin' to Tots

 

[Totton Linnet]

Aye the western church will not listen but what God is doing in the east already puts 1500 years of western chistianity in the shade [while not denigrading such works as the reformation, the Wesleys etc]

 

[Totton Linnet]

When I argue with Lon and seem to be slangbanging him personally I am not...I am addressing a doctrinal point of view, a stance, a theological position which reformed evangelicals have taken opposing the Pentecostal movement....and I am referring to historical Pentecostalism rather than the modern representation of it as seen in many high profile ministries.

Pentecostals have always had a rather higher opinion of reformed evangelicals than RE's have of Pentecostals, we love them as brothers.

We all know Lon is polite and measured in his debating style. but actually the arguments he is putting forward are full of disdain, they are steeped in condescension and I am arguing forcefully to dig that out from between the lines.

Evangelicalism in it's historical form is well past it's sell by date, if Pentecostalism had not come upon the church and world stage when it did, it would have been dead and buried well before now.

Pentecostalism may have lost it's edge in the western church, although it is still the only faction showing any reasonable growth, but in China and Africa and other continents it is still in full flood.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Sooner or later Lon will have to address the scriptures I am giving him because if Christ had not said Give and it will be given you again, good measure, if He had not pointed to the birds and the lilies and assured us that God cares for each one of His people PERSONALLY, that they should be fed and clothed in right regal fashion.

If Christ had not assured us that if we seek God's kingdom FIRST then all the things that the nations seek will be ours as well, if Paul had not told us that He who gave up His own Son will surely give us all things.

If these things are not the teachings of the bible then I would have no case.

 

[Selaphiel]

The prosperity gospel is one of the most satanic heresies ever to defile to church.

View attachment 24486

 

[Totton Linnet]

The prosperity gospel is one of the most satanic heresies ever to defile to church.

View attachment 24486

I think the poverty gospel is the satanic one

Who said these words was it Satan or was it Christ?

Therefore take no thought saying what shall we eat? or what shall we drink? or wherewithal shall we be clothed?

For after all these things do the Gentiles seek and your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of them

But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.

Our treasure is in heaven with the heavenly Father, our treasure is to BELIEVE when we pray and we shall have the things we desire of God.

But Christians do not live after this fashion, They DO fret and worry, they do lay up treasure in bank accounts, they work hard and scratch and save...they compromise in order to achieve promotion and in these days of political correctness just to keep their jobs.

Mammon is about to fail...but God will never fail in one of His good promises....but you have to learn to live this faith lifestyle. Don't wait for the bottom to fall out of the economy, learn now to trust God's word.