I believe my skepticism is Valid not ignorant do you ?

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Wow ,

Really appreciate the response,
De nada. With quotes. The easiest way I've found to divide a thing up is to leave the opening tag alone then type in [/ quote] (without the space, of course) to end the first part you mean to respond to.

From that point on all you have to do is drag and click over each part you want to respond to and, leaving it highlighted, then click the quote bubble directly above where you're typing that looks like a dialogue bubble from a comic book or strip. It's just to the right of the icon that resembles a post card.

Eras the stuff you don't want to respond to, of course, and always give a quick look by clicking Preview Post button before you click on Submit Reply to check for mistakes. Makes a difference. I only offer because I can see you were making the attempt but a lot of it went awry.

I do and have given your point careful consideration , yes i would say it was that way instead of the guys offering views , i was being told firmly that God has decreed this and that and that these guys interpretation of these decrees are correct , when i tried to offer alternative interpretation i was waved off.
Okay, but you're using fairly negative descriptions of them throughout and either that's you looking back and applying a context or, taking it as written, it's you being more negative than you realize and maybe they saw that as well. Else, as I said, they seemed more eager than prepared, but that happens.

Ok you can decide... i have called myself a skeptic , however i am quite open to the suggestion of God , in fact would welcome his existence and try to live my life in a way that reflects Christian values .. not because they are Christian but because i think they are good values.
I like how you couch it, but skepticism is a bit different, as definitions go and so my attempt to clarify on the point. I appreciate your response though. As I said, if you're open to truth it has a way of finding you. Can't ask for more at this point.

So maybe skeptic is not a valid description .. but thankyou for the response some thought provoking questions and i had to question my behavior and honesty to respond.
I generally find that whenever I make myself the complete hero of my narrative (and that's about as human as can be) I'm usually at least a little mistaken. At the very least I've failed to consider the other narrative and that whoever runs it is likely the hero of theirs too.

It can change things when you reflect on it from that perspective. Thanks for the consideration and response. :cheers: And welcome aboard, again.
 
i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else

The problem I've always seen is not really skepticism, has not ever been, yet, with anybody I've known. This certainly doesn't mean it's impossible otherwise, of course. I don't know everybody, but none I've seen, which makes the probability of intellect and reason prevailing small. Beneath the surface, disbelief has to do with fatal vanity and lack of all important repentance required for salvation, but this is another subject.

The problem is spiritual blindness, that, if you're not born of God, of the Holy Spirit, you will never see the truth. Many say you can't prove there's a God, but a few of us know this isn't true. Fulfilled Bible prophecy proves that only God could have given scripture, only an omniscient, supernatural being could have knowledge of many events, perfectly fulfilled, hundreds and thousands of years before they happened. It's impossible fulfilled Bible prophecy of simply the first coming of the Lord Jesus, in great detail in the Old Testament, could be random, far beyond impossible, by accepted statistical methods of proof, accepted in scientific experimentation to verify a hypothesis. Any other hypothesis, that is, that doesn't have stubborn refusal to believe, under any circumstance, stubborn closed mindedness, at the front end. But the "skeptic" will deny what is right there, in black and white, for thousands of years, on the printed page of God's book that proves, beyond all doubt, as God Himself declares,

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

It's all over the web, all the evidence you need, places like:

Reliability of the Bible

Odds Surrounding Jesus Christ


There is much like this on the web, at anybody's fingertips to Google, that prove the God of the Bible. (Yet most wouldn't even bother to look, a sort of reverse Christian teaching at work in unregenerate man, "Don't seek, and you won't find.")

But the thing is, in my experience, even a Phd in mathematics will go stupid for believing what he wants to believe, when you show him he's clearly wrong, by the very same proofs of a plethora of other science he will accept as proven, the statistics involving prophecy even a number so high as to not be chance that nobody can name what the "one in a" number is, with so many zeros after it. Everybody I've shown this, personally, still will not believe, as the Lord stated,

Luke 16

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It's not really skepticism with most people. It's not that people can't believe in the Lord, rather they won't believe in the Lord. People wind up in hell, because they refuse to repent, insist on believing what they want to believe, and cannot dislodge that other god, self. I've known many who acknowledge God, but refuse Him, something many try to hide, but it often finally comes to the surface, that it's a matter of refusing God, not wanting God.

I would pray, if you have it in you to think hard about whether you wish to be an eternal loser, that you take a serious look at Jesus Christ, examine the prophecy stats and at least put the skepticism business to bed, realize you are in the most serious trouble anybody can be in, if you don't repent and believe in the Lord Jesus to save you from the sure wrath of God that will fall on all who refuse His grace, and condemn you to eternal hell. When you're one heartbeat away from this, it's not a matter to fool around over. Also, it all becomes clear to you, when you're saved and born from above, of the Holy Spirit. The scales will fall off your blinded eyes, your deaf ears opened, and you finally see what was clearly true and was always there, all the time. In fact, God never asked for blind faith.

Wishing you God's speed to find salvation.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Self-righteousness is a kind of drug for some people. They need it to feel 'OK' about themselves; to feel 'safe' (saved), to feel as though they are 'on the right track' (in God's graces, etc.). It's a kind of false antidote for the internal fear that some people feel, most likely as a result of an abusive upbringing.

Unfortunately, self-righteousness is a drug that can only be gained by the passing of negative judgment, on others. And as the "addict" comes to need their righteousness "fix" more and more, they need to find more 'victims' to judge, and find wanting. Hence, we have some of these righteousness addicts walking around in public, seeking out other people to pass their negative judgments upon, and thereby feel self-righteous in relation to.

And that's what I think you and your friend ran into the other day. A couple of those righteousness junkies looking for people to judge, and to find themselves righteous in relation to. So you provided them with their momentary fix.

I realize that it's insulting and annoying to find yourself being unfairly judged by strangers, like this. But try to keep in mind that they are addicts of their own odd sort, and not fully in control of their own minds and behaviors. Think of them with compassion, if you can, and as you might had they been drunks, or crack addicts or something.

And WELCOME!

So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
@October,

I have no problem in complete agreement , i do not study the bible but think that is a good thing , i would much rather use a medium like this to get ideas and information , i think the problem with the Bible is not the Bible itself but how people interpret its content and then hold on to its interpretation and can not be swayed ... in my mind that is dangerous and stupid.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -
 
So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.

Sort of like somebody speeding towards a washed-out bridge at 75 mph, and you're at the side of the road, holding up a sign, "DANGER! THE BRIDGE IS WASHED OUT!" It's offensive and better that you refrain from holding up such signs. Just stop being judgmental! It's selfish, and you're upsetting people you're trying to warn of their pending disaster. Makes sense to me.
 

PureX

Well-known member
So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls. I believe they do it because they are addicted to the idea of their own righteousness.

And I can make the case for my opinion.
 

PureX

Well-known member
@Purex

Very valid and sensible response (in my opinion) , you know what i came away from the encounter actually feeling sorry for the pair as you suggest .. as i have already stated i think peoples interpretation of accounts in the bible can be really dangerous and at the same time provide some with focus and inner peace.
The Bible is just a tool, and can be used for either ill or good. Your reaction shows compassion, and I would think that's a good thing.
Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ?
Well, I think we all get "led" one way or another as we're growing up, and then it becomes difficult to change our thought-habits.
... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.
I doubt that they are.

I would view such people as being Christian; as they exemplify the ideals of Christ. But I am not a religious Christian, myself, so for me, the religious dogmas aren't a necessary part of it. Though I am not against religion for others, because, as you stated, there are plenty of folks who can and do use their religion to help them understand and follow the Christian ideal.

I just don't happen to believe that proselytizing a religious dogma is a particularly Christian activity. I think it's mostly an ego-centric activity on the part of those who engage in it.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.
Then I'd say whatever your life context you've reached critical mass with cynicism that precludes objectivity. Reminiscent of when Stripe told me, recently, that most people were bad and meant to be, to paraphrase.

I believe they do it because they are addicted to the idea of their own righteousness.
I'm sure anything is true of some, but that's a dangerously blind rule you're advancing.

And I can make the case for my opinion.
To whom? I suspect you mean you can make a case that satisfies you, may satisfy others but will be roundly rejected by still others whom you will then decide are each and every the very person you're speaking of...

I just don't happen to believe that proselytizing a religious dogma is a particularly Christian activity. I think it's mostly an ego-centric activity on the part of those who engage in it.
Jesus differed with you, as did his apostles and I don't think you adequately describe their motivation, supra.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ?
So you're saying that if you write a really bad essay early on it's a comment on the point of essays? Or you should question why you allow your instructors to lead you into bad essays? It's just the nature of growth. Most good writers start out as bad ones. The best of poets have cringe worthy papers buried in some collection for private reflection and a laugh.

My earliest attempts at pulling off a good photograph were almost uniformly awful, flawed, lacking an understanding of any number of conventions I'd learn.

The other day I won an award for one. Because that's how you get here from there. Compassion for two men who did poorly what they meant to do well is one thing, moving beyond that into even the appearance of a benign but assumptive form of contempt is something else.

... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.
That's you conforming God to your expectations again. To take on a few things. Refraining from doing evil isn't doing good. So someone who never committed a murder doesn't merit a good conduct star or any particular praise, let alone what you suggest. You aren't supposed to murder people, or cheat them, or lie to them, etc.

What about those who do good works but reject the premise of the good? I suppose it's a foundational difference. If you're going to approach God by that means (and most faiths have a version of it, in Islam there's an angel counting on each shoulder) in the name of some roughly just tally you'd also have to count the things you do that are bad, wrong, evil against those virtues... Lies of every stripe, cruel remarks, cheating on this or that, etc. And I'm not certain anyone comes out well on that count, sure we don't if we include our thoughts/intentions, which Christ did. So if anyone gets what he's earned I think the narrow gate becomes indistinguishable from a closed one. And so the cross and grace and the offer that isn't to be refused, but can be.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Then I'd say whatever your life context you've reached critical mass with cynicism that precludes objectivity. Reminiscent of when Stripe told me, recently, that most people were bad and meant to be, to paraphrase.
You are saying this. … But why are you saying it, I wonder?
I'm sure anything is true of some, but that's a dangerously blind rule you're advancing.
Not really. It's not like I've recommended the proselytizers be punished for it.
To whom? I suspect you mean you can make a case that satisfies you, may satisfy others but will be roundly rejected by still others whom you will then decide are each and every the very person you're speaking of…
To whomever asks. And "satisfaction" is not the pertinent point.
 

boristhespider

New member
@town heretic
Ok you seem to be determined to assume i am linking my perceived values of good for the purposes of this debate, let me re articulate.

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ? or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
@town heretic
Ok you seem to be determined to assume i am linking my perceived values of good for the purposes of this debate, let me re articulate.
Not sure what you mean by that, so I'll just wing it. I've mostly tried to present an amiable difference on a couple of points and a call for consideration on the whole. I'm not trying to put a feeling into you or assume the worst of you, but your remarks to our resident relativist seemed more in line with the negative blindspot I was warning about earlier.

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .
How is he then judged? I'll take that on next.

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ?
Have I said that he shouldn't be?

or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??
I don't even recall the point coming up in our conversation. I am confident that His judgment will be fair and in keeping with His nature, which was demonstrated by the cross. That isn't to say that any man will get a pass, because every man understands the right and wrong in life. But it is to say that we can rely on His judgment and address of those who through no fault of their own were apart from the gospel, that His part will be just and fair.

“Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness” Acts 17:31
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
You are saying this. … But why are you saying it, I wonder?
Because you wrote:
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.
and I find that dogmatically judgmental, unfair and remarkably blinkered, as cynical a statement as could be found on the point.

Not really. It's not like I've recommended the proselytizers be punished for it.
I didn't say you had. But yes, really. It's a horrible stereotype of the sort that just doesn't rationally stand up. I've known people who pray to be seen praying and it's not hard to spot them and I've known people who went door to door out of an earnest concern and in gratitude. To suggest only the meanest interpretation of action on the point is staggeringly jaded and, I think, contrary to reason.

To whomever asks.
No, you won't make the case to whomever asks...good grief, you might as well be going door to door yourself or shouting at the faithful from a street corner with that bit.

And "satisfaction" is not the pertinent point.
It is if you understand the word. You can argue a case, but making one requires agreement or all you're saying is that you're satisfied on the point and nothing else matters.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
@town heretic

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ? or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??

I have wrestled with that question as some will say he goes to hell. I disagree, as truly good and righteous people are rewarded by God.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
All human beings are naturally skeptical. We all have a judgmental, evaluating mind. It's a divine gift we all share for living in the world.
 
Top