I believe my skepticism is Valid not ignorant do you ?

[boristhespider]

Hi All,

First time poster so be kind

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

 

[Buzzword]

Constructive skepticism is always valid.

Especially in a situation like this, in which you are set upon by total strangers trying to rhetorically wrestle you to the ground.
Most especially when said strangers end up being intellectual lightweights when actually challenged.

 

[boristhespider]

I totally agree , i am not trying to provoke an argument but this encounter really got me thinking about religion as a whole and specifically some Christian beliefs , (the virgin birth , Moses parting the sea ...as two quick examples)

I am of the opinion that a lot of events are metaphorical references and based on scientific facts are impossible , again i am happy to be proved wrong but am perplexed how intelligent people just accept what on face value are bizarre unbelievable one off events.

Thanks for replying

 

[ok doser]

... i simply want to know he exists ...

you know He exists


romans 1:20

 

[Town Heretic]

Hi All,

First time poster so be kind

Welcome to the boards, actively speaking.

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

Sounds pleasant, as ideas go.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

A peculiar introduction, to be sure, but at least the second part introduced a note of ease in an otherwise discomforting moment.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

Did it seem that way or is that how you're thinking back on it now? Because it seems a bit...hostile. Ram? Clearly not to enjoy? See what I mean?

Why can't they have simply picked a location they favored to bring their witness to? Think of it as getting to pick the place where you go to work, if you love your work and can manage it. That's another way to see it, provided they were prepared to disengage when asked.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs

Their cherry picked beliefs they meant to ram down the throats of others? Is it that you actually respected them or that you'd like to think of yourself as having that sort of response, but maybe you're carrying your own baggage into it?

but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant

Then he had zeal but no understanding of what he was about and his friend should have stepped in or they should have been with a more mature fellow of the faith. Sounds like they're in over their well meaning heads at this point. And I say well meaning because of what follows.

It happens. There are two potential explanations for the way this has gone. One holds the fellow who just spoke completely at fault and the best admonishment to him would have been, "This isn't helping your witness or making me more likely to hear it." The second potential here might find root in your anticipation and response, the difference between how you see yourself and how he might have read you.

Doesn't excuse him, but maybe you were presenting a vaguely or not so vaguely hostile reaction, intended or not, from tone to posture and this fellow, who seems eager, but young in his faith, felt challenged and took the wrong approach in response. Maybe that was part of the reason he went the wrong way prior to his conversion and it's a lesson that he still needs to learn to some extent.

A lot of variables here.

as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do "

The problem with that is twofold. First, it presumes that if a God exists His ways and standards are yours. Now that either means you think too little of God or too much of your own standards. But if God exists you have to begin with the premise that He's correct and more than that. So instead of anticipating God conforming Himself to your expectations you'd have to be open to conforming your conduct and thinking to a higher one. Second, you've engaged yourself at that point in a debate when you said you wanted to be (gently?) rid of them. So you're presenting a contradiction of sorts to them and you've already had reason to suspect they aren't really ready to engage you on the point in that fashion.

i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical

Same comment/critique as above (see: standards).

as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

Now you're insulting them if you think on it. You just implied that they can't think for themselves, inferred they at least might have committed "blindly" on the advice of someone else.

As to your being open to more, I'm in. It's something God can work with and if you keep it, in time, I expect that He will. But you have to consider that openness in relation to the thing you don't appear to see in yourself. It's a little hostile. Maybe not as open as you'd want to be. Something to consider at any rate.

This angered the chap`s

Sure. I think if you consider what I've said you'll see some part of you meant to or should have understood the inevitability of it given their approach and, well, supra. In fairness, it's human nature to get a bit aggressive when met by a challenge that goes to the root of who we are, of our context for life. True for everyone involved.

they both wandered off

Did they really though? I mean, consider that description in light of what I'm suggesting here. Did they suddenly stop speaking and then wander off? Or did they at some point possibly begin to realize their mistake, or maybe the other fellow did and began moving the one who didn't. Did they realize this wasn't advancing their cause and might they have begun to learn something valuable, while not being completely at a point to see it?

but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

Sounds more like disengaging than wandering off... like frustration mingled with a sense of recognition that they didn't meet the opportunity well. They likely meant a good and seem to begin to see that good was thwarted, at least to some extent, by the form of their engagement. I hope it's a lesson for them when they counsel and consider it more fully. Who knows, maybe both of you will learn and profit by it.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

I'm not a particular fan of skepticism as it begins with doubt. I prefer a more agnostic approach, which is a bit less jaded and more receptive. When I was an atheist I would have expressed it as: I don't believe as you do or see reason to, but I don't know the answers to all sorts of questions and so I'll tell you this, whatever the truth is I hope to know it and will never count myself as an enemy of it.

In fact, I was an avid seeker of truth in one form or another, read a great deal of writing in various faiths trying to get to the bottom of what seemed to me a human truth, the need to reconcile our natures and being. I thought of religion as a codified record of the attempt without thinking there was much beyond it. And I held that amiable disconnect until God nudged me.

Welcome, again. :cheers:

 

[OCTOBER23]

BORISBADENOUGH said,

well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROVE IT.

DROP DEAD.

 

[bybee]

Hi All,

First time poster so be kind

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

Skepticism is human. I have no thoughts on that.
The abrasive, in your face evangelizing which these types of dipsticks engage in is not Christian behavior. It is a form of self aggrandizing exercise of power.
Whenever one of these types attempts to "save" me, I put on an unctuous face and say "You know, I am going to pray for you. You are obviously very misguided and in serious need of prayer!"
Normally they leave in a huff!
Quite delightful really.

 

[annabenedetti]

Skepticism is human. I have no thoughts on that.
The abrasive, in your face evangelizing which these types of dipsticks engage in is not Christian behavior. It is a form of self aggrandizing exercise of power.
Whenever one of these types attempts to "save" me, I put on an unctuous face and say "You know, I am going to pray for you. You are obviously very misguided and in serious need of prayer!"
Normally they leave in a huff!
Quite delightful really.

I think maybe boristhespider had an encounter with Truster.

 

[bybee]

I think maybe boristhespider had an encounter with Truster.

Well....

 

[boristhespider]

Wow ,

Really appreciate the response,

[/QUOTE]Did it seem that way or is that how you're thinking back on it now? Because it seems a bit...hostile. Ram? Clearly not to enjoy? See what I mean?[/QUOTE]

I do and have given your point careful consideration , yes i would say it was that way instead of the guys offering views , i was being told firmly that God has decreed this and that and that these guys interpretation of these decrees are correct , when i tried to offer alternative interpretation i was waved off.


[/QUOTE]Doesn't excuse him, but maybe you were presenting a vaguely or not so vaguely hostile reaction, intended or not, from tone to posture and this fellow, who seems eager, but young in his faith, felt challenged and took the wrong approach in response. Maybe that was part of the reason he went the wrong way prior to his conversion and it's a lesson that he still needs to learn to some extent.

I can assure you that i was very accommodating to these guys and i no way presented hostility in tone or body language ... actually really valid you bring this up as at the time i was consciously aware that i needed to show these guys i was listening and interested in the conversation , whilst not being patronizing ... maybe i tried to hard.

I'm not a particular fan of skepticism as it begins with doubt. I prefer a more agnostic approach, which is a bit less jaded and receptive

Ok you can decide... i have called myself a skeptic , however i am quite open to the suggestion of God , in fact would welcome his existence and try to live my life in a way that reflects Christian values .. not because they are Christian but because i think they are good values.

So maybe skeptic is not a valid description .. but thankyou for the response some thought provoking questions and i had to question my behavior and honesty to respond.

 

[boristhespider]

I clearly have not got the hang of using the quote system

 

[boristhespider]

@October23

haha i tell you what , if you go first and report back i will see you in Church tomorrow.

 

[OCTOBER23]

BORISBABY,

You obviously do not know your Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God,

him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[ok doser]

I clearly have not got the hang of using the quote system

you can edit

gotta start with [qu@te]

gotta end with [/qu@te]


replace the @s with Os

 

[OCTOBER23]

BORISBABY,

You obviously do not know your Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God,

him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price:

therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

DO NOT MURDER - INCLUDES YOURSELF

 

[boristhespider]

@October,

I have no problem in complete agreement , i do not study the bible but think that is a good thing , i would much rather use a medium like this to get ideas and information , i think the problem with the Bible is not the Bible itself but how people interpret its content and then hold on to its interpretation and can not be swayed ... in my mind that is dangerous and stupid.

 

[boristhespider]

As an example , i think if you asked 100 people to give the meanings of your quote , you would get 100 different responses .. so who is correct ?

 

[PureX]

Hi All,

First time poster so be kind

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

Self-righteousness is a kind of drug for some people. They need it to feel 'OK' about themselves; to feel 'safe' (saved), to feel as though they are 'on the right track' (in God's graces, etc.). It's a kind of false antidote for the internal fear that some people feel, most likely as a result of an abusive upbringing.

Unfortunately, self-righteousness is a drug that can only be gained by the passing of negative judgment, on others. And as the "addict" comes to need their righteousness "fix" more and more, they need to find more 'victims' to judge, and find wanting. Hence, we have some of these righteousness addicts walking around in public, seeking out other people to pass their negative judgments upon, and thereby feel self-righteous in relation to.

And that's what I think you and your friend ran into the other day. A couple of those righteousness junkies looking for people to judge, and to find themselves righteous in relation to. So you provided them with their momentary fix.

I realize that it's insulting and annoying to find yourself being unfairly judged by strangers, like this. But try to keep in mind that they are addicts of their own odd sort, and not fully in control of their own minds and behaviors. Think of them with compassion, if you can, and as you might had they been drunks, or crack addicts or something.

And WELCOME!

 

[Desert Reign]

Constructive skepticism is always valid.

Especially in a situation like this, in which you are set upon by total strangers trying to rhetorically wrestle you to the ground.
Most especially when said strangers end up being intellectual lightweights when actually challenged.

I agree. It depends on the culture. It was clearly not normal for them to accost BTS in this way. It was disrespectful.

 

[boristhespider]

@Purex

Very valid and sensible response (in my opinion) , you know what i came away from the encounter actually feeling sorry for the pair as you suggest .. as i have already stated i think peoples interpretation of accounts in the bible can be really dangerous and at the same time provide some with focus and inner peace.

Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ? ... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.