I have a question for Calvinists...

Clete

Clete

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Of course anyone can offer an answer but I want to hear from the Calvinists in particular on the following question....


If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?

Would your answer be different if you were the wife or one of the other ten children?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

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If he deliberately chose to leave the others and could easily help then I'd hardly call the guy a hero.

Then again, I wouldn't say that a guy who sets a house on fire and supplies exits or rescue ladders much of a hero either to counter. I find both Calvinism and your notion of 'free will hell' equally abhorrent in their own horrid ways.
 
Clete

Clete

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Arthur Brain said:
If he deliberately chose to leave the others and could easily help then I'd hardly call the guy a hero.

Then again, I wouldn't say that a guy who sets a house on fire and supplies exits or rescue ladders much of a hero either to counter. I find both Calvinism and your notion of 'free will hell' equally abhorrent in their own horrid ways.
Click to expand...

Free will hell?

Explain.
 
flintstoned

flintstoned

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Clete said:
Of course anyone can offer an answer but I want to hear from the Calvinists in particular on the following question....


If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?

Would your answer be different if you were the wife or one of the other ten children?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Click to expand...

I'm not a Calvinist, but if someone were responsible for purposely setting a fire and people die as a result, then I would consider them to be a murderer.

As for looking at the scenario from a Calvinist perspective, I would think it would fall along the lines of the following:

Someone warns the family that their careless actions regarding fire safety is dangerous. Family members fall asleep with cigarettes or candles burning, they leave gas appliances on, play with fireworks in the house, etc. When a fire does break out one night, this person is able to gain entry into the house and compel some family members to follow him to safety. The other members, don't even notice or believe that there is a fire. They refuse to leave the comfort of their beds, and don't notice the flames until it is too late.
 
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lukecash12

lukecash12

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flintstoned said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but if someone were responsible for purposely setting a fire and people die as a result, then I would consider them to be a murderer.

As for looking at the scenario from a Calvinist perspective, I would think it would fall along the lines of the following:

Someone warns the family that their careless actions regarding fire safety is dangerous. Family members fall asleep with cigarettes or candles burning, they leave gas appliances on, play with fireworks in the house, etc. When a fire does break out one night, this person is able to gain entry into the house and compel some family members to follow him to safety. The other members, don't even notice or believe that there is a fire. They refuse to leave the comfort of their beds, and don't notice the flames until it is too late.
Click to expand...

The problem with this "Calvinist" response is that it isn't really in line with Classical Calvinism. While I am in fact a Classical Arminian, my profession is philosophy and theology so I have read Calvin as well as much of Calvinist literature.

In Calvinist theology:

1. God determined who the elect were going to be for inscrutable reasons in eternity past (which essentially means "before Creation").
2. Those people that He chose He will draw, through the Holy Spirit, with an irresistible call.
3. When these people are called they are regenerated. This regeneration is necessary for someone to come to saving faith, because of total depravity.
4. Because there is unconditional election, as a logical consequence there is also unconditional reprobation/damnation.

It is this idea that there are people chosen for damnation in eternity past, which the OP is calling into question.
 
Clete

Clete

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Arthur Brain said:
Well, don't you believe that everyone who ends up in "hell" has made a conscious choice to end up there? That in effect they wilfully stay inside a burning building and deliberately choose to ignore any rescue attempt?
Click to expand...

Nope! I'm pretty sure I don't believe that.
 
musterion

musterion

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Clete said:
Of course anyone can offer an answer but I want to hear from the Calvinists in particular on the following question....


If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?
Click to expand...

Speaking as an ex-Calvinist, I request clarification:

Was he FULLY ABLE to rescue my entire family, not just a few of them? COULD he have done so?
 
Clete

Clete

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flintstoned said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but if someone were responsible for purposely setting a fire and people die as a result, then I would consider them to be a murderer.

As for looking at the scenario from a Calvinist perspective, I would think it would fall along the lines of the following:

Someone warns the family that their careless actions regarding fire safety is dangerous. Family members fall asleep with cigarettes or candles burning, they leave gas appliances on, play with fireworks in the house, etc. When a fire does break out one night, this person is able to gain entry into the house and compel some family members to follow him to safety. The other members, don't even notice or believe that there is a fire. They refuse to leave the comfort of their beds, and don't notice the flames until it is too late.
Click to expand...

The Calvinist believes that God preordained that the family would be sleepy smokers, that he made fireworks, that he made them go off, that he maintains the fire and causes it to burn. They further believe that those who don't notice the fire don't because God chose not to reveal it to them and intentionally blinded them.

Your use of the word "compel" was accurate though.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
musterion

musterion

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lukecash12 said:
4. Because there is unconditional election, as a logical consequence there is also unconditional reprobation/damnation.
Click to expand...

It is the logical consequence but Calvin also taught reprobation quite unapologetically. Many Calvinists insist he never did, but they are ignorant or lying.

It is this idea that there are people chosen for damnation in eternity past, which the OP is calling into question.
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Again, just to clarify, Calvin did teach it. So-called 'hyper-Calvinists' were hardly the first to do so.
 
D

dialm

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Clete said:
Of course anyone can offer an answer but I want to hear from the Calvinists in particular on the following question....


If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?

Would your answer be different if you were the wife or one of the other ten children?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Click to expand...


Will you please give a real life example of someone doing this. Or if you are unable to give a real life example then maybe you could give a bible example. If you can't do that then give an example from the writings of John Calvin.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Clete said:
Of course anyone can offer an answer but I want to hear from the Calvinists in particular on the following question....


If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?

Would your answer be different if you were the wife or one of the other ten children?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Click to expand...

Presumably you are saying the man who set the house on fire is God, but God didn't sin, He forbade sin, He faithfully warned against sin and still does rising up early.

Putting that aside for a moment

Suppose the wife was evil, her soul as black as coal...all her mind is to find ways of first murdering her husband and then all the children...then the neighbourhood families to boot.

Five of the children take after the man who is a good man, the other six take after the woman...pure evil

Now if the man discovered the plot and despairing of the woman and the six evil kids he decides to save the other five by moving out with them before the conflagration begins...yet not without fully warning the woman that she will only bring evil upon her own head.
 
D

dialm

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Totten Litten,

Just set up any scenario anyway that looks good and see what happens.

Or

Throw some mashed tatters against the wall and see what purdy design it makes as it slides down to the ground.
 
Totton Linnet

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Well if the assumption of the op is that God was the original cause of it all...what does that say?

The GOSPEL facts are that there is wheat and there are tares, the wheat is God's planting but the tares were planted by the devil.

You see them in the disciples who followed Christ who are His sheep and those who came up against them who were the children of the devil and his lust they will do.

People who cannot understand this will have the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, the doves and vipers all mixed up together.

No WONDER the church is in a sorry state, no wonder the gospel cain't make headway.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Totton Linnet said:
Presumably you are saying the man who set the house on fire is God, but God didn't sin, He forbade sin, He faithfully warned against sin and still does rising up early.

Putting that aside for a moment

Suppose the wife was evil, her soul as black as coal...all her mind is to find ways of first murdering her husband and then all the children...then the neighbourhood families to boot.

Five of the children take after the man who is a good man, the other six take after the woman...pure evil

Now if the man discovered the plot and despairing of the woman and the six evil kids he decides to save the other five by moving out with them before the conflagration begins...yet not without fully warning the woman that she will only bring evil upon her own head.
Click to expand...

EXTREME example, don't you think?
 
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