If you don't believe in the trinity...

Status
Not open for further replies.

daqq

Well-known member
You're looking at the wrong word, pops!!!:doh:

You need to review this word...πρωτοτοκος

Exodus 4:22 Septuagint
22. σὺ δὲ ἐρεῖς τῷ Φαραώ· τάδε λέγει Κύριος· υἱὸς πρωτότοκός μου ᾿Ισραήλ·
22. Moreover you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says YHWH, Yisrael is My prototokos-firstborn Son!

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=4

Hebrews 1:6 W/H
6. ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.
6. Moreover when He brings again the prototokos-firstborn [Yisrael] into the Land, He says, "And let all the messenger-angels of Elohim bow to him." (Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX).

http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-6.htm

What I find ironic is that the quote from Hebrews 1:6 is not even found in the Masoretic Hebrew Text. It is only found in Deuteronomy 32:43 of the Septuagint which quite a few around here seem to despise. :chuckle:
 

popsthebuilder

New member
So...

There is NO verse that states that The Son was created.

You just added it to your worldview for no reason.

That's what I thought.

Thank you...
How f****** ignorant can you be? Do you have children? Have you ever seen any nature videos or had a health class in school? Children are created. Men grow from children that are created. Jesus of Nazareth was a man. The most perfect and holy under God and pre ordained by God and prophesied about, yet a man. So please explain how am I losing you? Thank you.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως

Col 1.15 expresses subordination. The genitive substantive specifies that which is subordinated to, or under, the dominion of the head substantive. In this case, the creation is subordinate to Jesus.
No ***. The subordination is Christ under God as our directions as humans not God. Thank you.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Let me see.....
Jesus was born, so he is a creation.
Christ is the express image of God so he is a creation.
He was MADE a little lower than the Angles to dwell in Jesus.

Firstborn of all creatures, that's what it says in Col 1:15

Interesting.....But Apple7 is an authority of Apple7 Greek so he/she must be right.

Jesus and Christ are one of the same. What's wrong with your mind?
Your theories are fictitious and unsound.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
How f****** ignorant can you be? Do you have children? Have you ever seen any nature videos or had a health class in school? Children are created. Men grow from children that are created. Jesus of Nazareth was a man. The most perfect and holy under God and pre ordained by God and prophesied about, yet a man. So please explain how am I losing you? Thank you.

Implied vulgarity might just get you banned?
 

daqq

Well-known member
Jesus and Christ are one of the same. What's wrong with your mind?
Your theories are fictitious and unsound.

Since you demand that the two are one and the same please explain your own theory on the following contradiction you have created by your theory that they are one and the same:

Mark 15:21-25 KJV
21. And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22. And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23. And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24. And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

John 19:14-17 KJV
14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17. And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:


Mark 15 -- Crucifixion at the third hour.
John 19 -- Crucifixion at the sixth hour.

Mark 15 -- Simon the Cyrenian carries the cross.
John 19 -- Yeshua carries his own cross.

Which Gospel account do you keep and which Gospel account to do toss out or ignore as spurious? If you toss out Mark you may as well toss out all three Synoptic Gospel accounts because they all three have Simon the Cyrenian bearing the cross. However if you toss out the Gnostic Gospel of John then you no longer have any supposed "proof texts" to "prove" that "Jesus is God". :rotfl:

Better yet I will tell you what you will do: you will not answer the questions or the dilemma that you desire to force upon others because you do not care about the chaos, confusion, and massive amount of contradiction your doctrine leaves in its wake as you sweep on by along your merry way to destruction. :crackup:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Since you demand that the two are one and the same please explain your own theory on the following contradiction you have created by your theory that they are one and the same:

Mark 15:21-25 KJV
21. And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22. And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23. And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24. And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

John 19:14-17 KJV
14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17. And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:


Mark 15 -- Crucifixion at the third hour.
John 19 -- Crucifixion at the sixth hour.

Mark 15 -- Simon the Cyrenian carries the cross.
John 19 -- Yeshua carries his own cross.

Which Gospel account do you keep and which Gospel account to do toss out or ignore as spurious? If you toss out Mark you may as well toss out all three Synoptic Gospel accounts because they all three have Simon the Cyrenian bearing the cross. However if you toss out the Gnostic Gospel of John then you no longer have any supposed "proof texts" to "prove" that "Jesus is God". :rotfl:

Better yet I will tell you what you will do: you will not answer the questions or the dilemma that you desire to force upon others because you do not care about the chaos, confusion, and massive amount of contradiction your doctrine leaves in its wake as you sweep on by along your merry way to destruction. :crackup:

So, because of this problem YOU have with the Scriptures, you
assume that Christ and Jesus are two separate beings? Are you
a member of the "Keypurr Cult?"

You might want to follow this link for an explanation: https://www.apologeticspress.org/apPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=499
 

daqq

Well-known member
So, because of this problem YOU have with the Scriptures, you
assume that Christ and Jesus are two separate beings? Are you
a member of the "Keypurr Cult?"

You might want to follow this link for an explanation: https://www.apologeticspress.org/apPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=499

True to form you did not answer the question of who actually carried the cross to the crucifixion: was it Simon Kurenaios who carried the cross, as the three Synoptic Gospel accounts record? or was it Yeshua himself who carried his own cross, as the Gospel of John records? And as for the answer which you did give, concerning Roman time, it was not your own answer but rather the same old numbskull response that such people as yourself run and get from the internet wilderness every time the question is asked. You now show that you truly do not care how much your every response creates even more confusion and contradiction than the questions which were asked to begin with. You apparently have no problem turning Yeshua into a Roman so long as you get to keep your happy go lucky paradigm and continue along your merry way. There are certain statements made that must comply with Torah and one such statement concerns time keeping, (John 11:9). However if such a statement concerns Roman time keeping then it neither glorifies God, (as the passage says) nor does it honor the time keeping laid out in Torah which is based around sacrifices, incense offerings, and prayers. Was the tenth hour of John 1:37-39 Roman time keeping, as you say, and thus 10:00PM at night? And it only gets worse from there on throughout. Was Yeshua wearied from his journey in John 4:3-6 at 6:00AM Roman time or was it 6:00PM Roman time? You necessarily must say 6:00PM so as not to show yourself a complete buffoon. But even so, if you say John 4:6 is 6:00PM Roman time then you have switched the hour of prayer which occurs every day at the sixth hour, just before the midday turning of the seventh hour, and the seventh hour comes to pass in the very same passage with the statement from John 4:23. Then in John 4:52 we read of a remote healing at the seventh hour, which in Roman time keeping would necessarily be 7:00PM from that vantage point, which is outside of the given twelve hours of the day. The same twelve hours of the day from Torah are reinforced in the statement of John 11:9. However, if the statement of John 11:9 concerns Roman time keeping, then some of the things done in the previous passages contradict the plain statement from John 11:9 because it places Yeshua in the midst of a journey at 7:00PM Roman time in John 4:3-6 and walking at what should be considered the night according to Hebrew time reckoning, being outside of the given twelve hours of the day. Even the remote healing of the fever in the very same passage occurs in the seventh hour, which would have been 7:00PM in Roman time keeping, and outside of the twelve hours of the day in the time reckoning which is prescribed in Torah. If the author of the Gospel of John is using Roman time keeping then it causes Yeshua himself to violate Torah elsewhere in the account by the statements attributed to him from the author, and your "Lamb of God" is thus disqualified as a possible Messiah candidate for having broken the Law, and as already shown from previous posts in this thread; you too are yet another among many eating scapegoat which you found out in internet wilderness with all the sins upon its mortally wounded head because you care not to answer the difficult questions and force yourself to realign your doctrine accordingly. :chuckle:

:sheep:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
True to form you did not answer the question of who actually carried the cross to the crucifixion: was it Simon Kurenaios who carried the cross, as the three Synoptic Gospel accounts record? or was it Yeshua himself who carried his own cross, as the Gospel of John records? And as for the answer which you did give, concerning Roman time, it was not your own answer but rather the same old numbskull response that such people as yourself run and get from the internet wilderness every time the question is asked. You now show that you truly do not care how much your every response creates even more confusion and contradiction than the questions which were asked to begin with. You apparently have no problem turning Yeshua into a Roman so long as you get to keep your happy go lucky paradigm and continue along your merry way. There are certain statements made that must comply with Torah and one such statement concerns time keeping, (John 11:9). However if such a statement concerns Roman time keeping then it neither glorifies God, (as the passage says) nor does it honor the time keeping laid out in Torah which is based around sacrifices, incense offerings, and prayers. Was the tenth hour of John 1:37-39 Roman time keeping, as you say, and thus 10:00PM at night? And it only gets worse from there on throughout. Was Yeshua wearied from his journey in John 4:3-6 at 6:00AM Roman time or was it 6:00PM Roman time? You necessarily must say 6:00PM so as not to show yourself a complete buffoon. But even so, if you say John 4:6 is 6:00PM Roman time then you have switched the hour of prayer which occurs every day at the sixth hour, just before the midday turning of the seventh hour, and the seventh hour comes to pass in the very same passage with the statement from John 4:23. Then in John 4:52 we read of a remote healing at the seventh hour, which in Roman time keeping would necessarily be 7:00PM from that vantage point, which is outside of the given twelve hours of the day. The same twelve hours of the day from Torah are reinforced in the statement of John 11:9. However, if the statement of John 11:9 concerns Roman time keeping, then some of the things done in the previous passages contradict the plain statement from John 11:9 because it places Yeshua in the midst of a journey at 7:00PM Roman time in John 4:3-6 and walking at what should be considered the night according to Hebrew time reckoning, being outside of the given twelve hours of the day. Even the remote healing of the fever in the very same passage occurs in the seventh hour, which would have been 7:00PM in Roman time keeping, and outside of the twelve hours of the day in the time reckoning which is prescribed in Torah. If the author of the Gospel of John is using Roman time keeping then it causes Yeshua himself to violate Torah elsewhere in the account by the statements attributed to him from the author, and your "Lamb of God" is thus disqualified as a possible Messiah candidate for having broken the Law, and as already shown from previous posts in this thread; you too are yet another among many eating scapegoat which you found out in internet wilderness with all the sins upon its mortally wounded head because you care not to answer the difficult questions and force yourself to realign your doctrine accordingly. :chuckle:

:sheep:

A bit of advise. When you post me, make it short and sweet. I read
barely the first sentence and ditched the rest. So, I really don't know
what you were trying to say?
 
Last edited:

keypurr

Well-known member
A bit of advise. When you post me, make it short and sweet. I read

barely the first sentience and ditched the rest. So, I really don't know

what you were trying to say?


You must go deeper to understand scripture GM, it is no sin to be limited, but it is a sin to stay limited. Long post can be very educational, the customs of the people need to be known to see what the words are saying. No one knows it all, we are all still learning.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
True to form you did not answer the question of who actually carried the cross to the crucifixion: was it Simon Kurenaios who carried the cross, as the three Synoptic Gospel accounts record? or was it Yeshua himself who carried his own cross, as the Gospel of John records? And as for the answer which you did give, concerning Roman time, it was not your own answer but rather the same old numbskull response that such people as yourself run and get from the internet wilderness every time the question is asked. You now show that you truly do not care how much your every response creates even more confusion and contradiction than the questions which were asked to begin with. You apparently have no problem turning Yeshua into a Roman so long as you get to keep your happy go lucky paradigm and continue along your merry way. There are certain statements made that must comply with Torah and one such statement concerns time keeping, (John 11:9). However if such a statement concerns Roman time keeping then it neither glorifies God, (as the passage says) nor does it honor the time keeping laid out in Torah which is based around sacrifices, incense offerings, and prayers. Was the tenth hour of John 1:37-39 Roman time keeping, as you say, and thus 10:00PM at night? And it only gets worse from there on throughout. Was Yeshua wearied from his journey in John 4:3-6 at 6:00AM Roman time or was it 6:00PM Roman time? You necessarily must say 6:00PM so as not to show yourself a complete buffoon. But even so, if you say John 4:6 is 6:00PM Roman time then you have switched the hour of prayer which occurs every day at the sixth hour, just before the midday turning of the seventh hour, and the seventh hour comes to pass in the very same passage with the statement from John 4:23. Then in John 4:52 we read of a remote healing at the seventh hour, which in Roman time keeping would necessarily be 7:00PM from that vantage point, which is outside of the given twelve hours of the day. The same twelve hours of the day from Torah are reinforced in the statement of John 11:9. However, if the statement of John 11:9 concerns Roman time keeping, then some of the things done in the previous passages contradict the plain statement from John 11:9 because it places Yeshua in the midst of a journey at 7:00PM Roman time in John 4:3-6 and walking at what should be considered the night according to Hebrew time reckoning, being outside of the given twelve hours of the day. Even the remote healing of the fever in the very same passage occurs in the seventh hour, which would have been 7:00PM in Roman time keeping, and outside of the twelve hours of the day in the time reckoning which is prescribed in Torah. If the author of the Gospel of John is using Roman time keeping then it causes Yeshua himself to violate Torah elsewhere in the account by the statements attributed to him from the author, and your "Lamb of God" is thus disqualified as a possible Messiah candidate for having broken the Law, and as already shown from previous posts in this thread; you too are yet another among many eating scapegoat which you found out in internet wilderness with all the sins upon its mortally wounded head because you care not to answer the difficult questions and force yourself to realign your doctrine accordingly. :chuckle:

:sheep:
I'm sorry, but if you were saying the Jesus of Nazareth is not the Messiah and that he wasn't sent from God, predestined from God, and the only pure in Christ ever to walk the earth in human form, then you are mistaken.
 

StanJ

New member
Do you have children? Have you ever seen any nature videos or had a health class in school? Children are created. Men grow from children that are created. Jesus of Nazareth was a man. The most perfect and holy under God and pre ordained by God and prophesied about, yet a man. So please explain how am I losing you? Thank you.

ALL life is PROcreated. That is not the same as created, which God did out of NOTHING.
 

daqq

Well-known member
I'm sorry, but if you were saying the Jesus of Nazareth is not the Messiah and that he wasn't sent from God, predestined from God, and the only pure in Christ ever to walk the earth in human form, then you are mistaken.

If you agree with GM that the author of the Gospel of John and Yeshua kept Roman time then I am saying your version of Messiah is a false Messiah and you may as well be eating scapegoat you found out in your desert wanderings in the land of Nod. :chuckle:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
I'm sorry, but if you were saying the Jesus of Nazareth is not the Messiah and that he wasn't sent from God, predestined from God, and the only pure in Christ ever to walk the earth in human form, then you are mistaken.


I believe your misunderstanding him friend.
 

Apple7

New member
How f****** ignorant can you be? Do you have children? Have you ever seen any nature videos or had a health class in school? Children are created. Men grow from children that are created. Jesus of Nazareth was a man. The most perfect and holy under God and pre ordained by God and prophesied about, yet a man. So please explain how am I losing you? Thank you.

Cursing does not impress.

Showing scripture, or lack thereof, for your assertion is what impresses...
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Cursing does not impress.

Showing scripture, or lack thereof, for your assertion is what impresses...
Sure, I tell you what... You post scripture pertaining to the Trinity and I will interpret it for you as far as my knowledge and God will let me. Thank you.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
If you agree with GM that the author of the Gospel of John and Yeshua kept Roman time then I am saying your version of Messiah is a false Messiah and you may as well be eating scapegoat you found out in your desert wanderings in the land of Nod. :chuckle:

Another "Other" mouth's off.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top