Inversed Christianity

[csuguy]

Grace without works is not dead and we are most certainly saved by it!Ephesians 2:4-9 KJVRomans 4:4-5 KJV, Romans 11:5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV Romans 3:21-22 KJV

James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?​

 

[heir]

James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?​

James was not written to us James 1:1 KJV!

 

[nikolai_42]

Good - we both agree that beliefs guide your actions. So then, tell me, of what use are beliefs which do NOT guide your actions? What of beliefs that you act contrary to, that you ignore? Of what use are such beliefs? James says such faith is dead and cannot save you. Belief/faith only finds completion in action and apart from action is meaningless.

On the other hand, one who has not received the Law can do what is right. They become a law to themselves:

Romans 2:12-16 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

So you see, even one who does not have the Law of God yet can do what is right, becoming a law to themselves - even having that law written on their hearts and minds. When the judgement comes, their conscience will even defend them before God. Such a one can be saved, even while not believing, and a believer can be damned despite his/her belief - because their deeds were not in accordance with their proclaimed faith.

One question (about all I have time for at the moment). Are you saying (and this is simply to make sure I'm understanding you) that someone who doesn't know Christ can be saved by their actions and someone who does can be damned by their actions? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so if that isn't quite what you are saying, please clarify.

That is not to say that beliefs are not important - but, again, faith without works is dead and cannot save you. Only in action is belief made complete. We must understand that when the scriptures speak of believing Christ, it is implied that you are to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ. When it says those that who believe will be saved - it is implicitly understand that you are acting according to that faith.

 

[csuguy]

James was not written to us James 1:1 KJV!

And here we see the same kind of thing I spoke of in the OP: you call yourselves followers of Christ, but you reject everything Christ taught and God's commands - saying that these things don't apply to you. So, tell me, how do you "follow" Christ if you don't believe what he taught applies to you?

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”​

Retreating to Paul does not help you - for he teaches that eternal life is the reward for good deeds (Romans 2:6-11). I'll ask you once more: can you have salvation without eternal life?

 

[csuguy]

One question (about all I have time for at the moment). Are you saying (and this is simply to make sure I'm understanding you) that someone who doesn't know Christ can be saved by their actions and someone who does can be damned by their actions? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so if that isn't quite what you are saying, please clarify.

Someone who believes in Christ can be damned, and someone who does not believe can be saved. Salvation is always through Christ. The key to understanding this is that we are judged by our actions.

Also, the mere mental acceptance of Christ is distinct from having a relationship with Christ, from Christ knowing you or you he. If you want to know Christ, for him to know you, then you must do the will of the Lord. If you do not, then Christ will say: ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23)

The parable of the sheep and goats makes this distinction quite clear:

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

What you see here is that Christ considers what you do or don't do to others, to the least of these, you have done or not done to him. This is how you know God, how you are known by God: you love him and you love your fellowman. Not with pretty words, but in truth and action. As Paul taught in Romans 2, even one who never received the Law of God can yet do what is right. And if they do right by the least of these, then they are known by God.

1 Cor 8:2-3 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

 

[jamie]

James was not written to us James 1:1 KJV!

James was writing to the Israel of God not to the Israel of Jacob.

Jesus told the Twelve, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)

The NT was written by Jews for Israel.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

On this forum and elsewhere it is common place, if not the majority, that I find Christianity completely inversed. For instance: they assert that Christ did everything and that nothing is required of us. They attack the idea that anything is required of us, that we should do any good works or that salvation in any way is dependent upon our actions. They turn everything on its head - for they call themselves Christians: followers of Christ. Yet what they teach and practice is to do nothing, do not do the will of the Lord, do not do good deeds, ignore God's Law, do not follow the commandments. These teachings and commands, they say, have nothing to do with us.

Yes that is what heir and company teach.

LA

 

[nikolai_42]

Someone who believes in Christ can be damned, and someone who does not believe can be saved. Salvation is always through Christ. The key to understanding this is that we are judged by our actions.

Your first 2 sentences seem somewhat contradictory. Even with the supposedly clarifying third sentence, you said someone can be saved who doesn't believe in Christ - yet salvation is always through Christ?

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I John 5:9-13

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:14-18

The fruit that we bear is what is outwardly shown - our works. So our works cannot be the determiner of our fruit - they are the fruit. It all goes back to something that is NOT works :

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:1-7

We don't abide in Christ by works if it is the works that are the fruit. Therefore, it is all founded on something beyond works. Works are important, but they are not the foundation. Christ Himself - and faith in Him - is the foundation.

Also, the mere mental acceptance of Christ is distinct from having a relationship with Christ, from Christ knowing you or you he. If you want to know Christ, for him to know you, then you must do the will of the Lord. If you do not, then Christ will say: ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23)

The parable of the sheep and goats makes this distinction quite clear:

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

What you see here is that Christ considers what you do or don't do to others, to the least of these, you have done or not done to him. This is how you know God, how you are known by God: you love him and you love your fellowman. Not with pretty words, but in truth and action. As Paul taught in Romans 2, even one who never received the Law of God can yet do what is right. And if they do right by the least of these, then they are known by God.

1 Cor 8:2-3 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

 

[chrysostom]

Salvation is always through Christ. The key to understanding this is that we are judged by our actions.

please explain how salvation is always through Christ

 

[Totton Linnet]

That foundation is love. Not religion. Not scriptures. Not proclamations of righteousness through faith. The foundation is love, being put into action by our faith in the power of that love to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others.

I think you're offended because I won't put your religion before love in terms of import. But I don't. I won't. And to do so, I believe, would be to miss the beauty of the forest for the confusion of trees.

God is too merciful to us to base our salvation upon love, the obedience of faith is the requirement......and the faith is a gift

 

[csuguy]

Your first 2 sentences seem somewhat contradictory. Even with the supposedly clarifying third sentence, you said someone can be saved who doesn't believe in Christ - yet salvation is always through Christ?

Christ died for everyone, not simply believers. As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall live. Of course, we know that this is simply a precursor to the judgement: and there we are judged on our actions, not beliefs X, Y and Z. So it is through Christ that anyone is saved - but salvation is not the result of accepting some set of intellectually accepting some set of dogma.

To try to maintain such poses many problems. For example: what if someone lived as good a life as any saint, yet never knew who Christ was? What of all the people before Christ? What of all the people after Christ who never heard the gospel? What about someone who believes X and Y but not Z? Is it a sin that they didn't come to accept Z such that it should cost them salvation? Whereas someone who was born to the right family was just so happened to be taught X, Y, and Z from birth so that they accepted these things without ever thinking about them - are they guaranteed salvation thanks to the circumstances of their birth? Would not such a thing show partiality in judgement?

I John 5:9-13
John 3:14-18

Yes belief is good and important and leads to salvation - providing one acts accordingly. Belief must be accompanied by action, else it is dead and cannot save you - as has been established in this conversation many times. We see in the context of your referenced passages both faith and works together. For instance:

John 3:20-21 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.​

1 John 5:1-4 Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the [c]Father loves the child [d]born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and [e]observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is [f]born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.​

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:1-7

We don't abide in Christ by works if it is the works that are the fruit. Therefore, it is all founded on something beyond works. Works are important, but they are not the foundation. Christ Himself - and faith in Him - is the foundation.

First off, works are not the fruit - fruit is what results from work.

Second off, that passage simply reiterates the importance of works in our salvation. For it says: "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away... " Unless you propose that the responsibility for a branch being unfruitful rests with God, it is clear that the individual is responsible for bearing fruit - and if one does not, then they are taken away and burned. He goes on to emphasize this point further:

John 15:8-11 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.​

 

[PureX]

God is too merciful to us to base our salvation upon love, the obedience of faith is the requirement......and the faith is a gift

Obedience is all people have left when they can't muster any real faith. Because faith is a choice, not a "gift". The gift is the freedom to choose to live by faith, or not to. And then to choose what ideal we will place our faith in: love or self-centered fear.

The more we obsess over obedience, the further away from Christ we slide. Because obedience is based on blindness and fear. Not on faith in love.

 

[Totton Linnet]

oh ah but uh...the bible say it is a gift and not of ourselves...lest Purex should boast

 

[genuineoriginal]

please explain how salvation is always through Christ

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, [JESUS]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[/JESUS]​

 

[PureX]

oh ah but uh...the bible say it is a gift and not of ourselves...lest Purex should boast

Oh, ah, but, ah, the Bible was written by religious men promoting their own religious beliefs and ideas. And in this case, is simply wrong. Because even a little basic common sense tells us that we choose both the objective and the act of faith.

It's the freedom to choose that is the gift from God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Oh, ah, but, ah, the Bible was written by religious men promoting their own religious beliefs and ideas. And in this case, is simply wrong. Because even a little basic common sense tells us that we choose both the objective and the act of faith.

It's the freedom to choose that is the gift from God.

So....the Chinese were free to believe in Christ any time they liked

 

[genuineoriginal]

Oh, ah, but, ah, the Bible was written by religious men promoting their own religious beliefs and ideas.

Good thing that is not true, otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to believe in God.

 

[PureX]

So....the Chinese were free to believe in Christ any time they liked

We all are. The power of love to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help heal each other is evident to anyone with eyes to see, a heart to feel, and a mind to think with. It's our path to choose, or not to.

 

[PureX]

Good thing that is not true, otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to believe in God.

Only for people who obey religion, instead of living by faith. If you had chosen faith, you could believe in God regardless of any religion.

But sadly, you didn't. And now your religion wants to keep it that way; so you'll remain "obedient", instead.

 

[csuguy]

Only for people who obey religion, instead of living by faith. If you had chosen faith, you could believe in God regardless of any religion.

But sadly, you didn't. And now your religion wants to keep it that way; so you'll remain "obedient", instead.

If you had faith and believed, then you would choose to obey. If you have faith and refuse to obey, then what good is your faith? If you persistently act contrary to your claimed faith, then clearly it does not have any value for you - it cannot save you. Your faith is dead. At least the non-believer can claim, in good conscience, that they were ignorant; but a believer who acts contrary to his faith has no excuse.

James 2:19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify [w]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.