Is Jesus God?

JudgeRightly · Oct 24, 2018

Welcome back, Keypurr. Where've ya been!

keypurr said:
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Who do you trust? if you do not believe in the words of the master, your wrong.

YHWH is not in your churches. Like Elvis, he has left the building. Follow your man made religion if you wish. I will trust in my God and my Lord Jesus Christ.

May YHWH open your eyes to his words and remove you from the darkness of Satan's churches.

Before you go off in your own direction, I was wondering perhaps if you could first answer my post from way back when, from the last time I saw you on here.

Here's my post (click the blue arrow to go to the post where it was for context), to which I would very much appreciate an answer.

JudgeRightly said:
Something that does not come from God.

Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

"Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

Whereas the alternative was this:

"Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

To which I then asked:

So again, Keypurr:

What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

Right Divider · Oct 24, 2018

TrevorL said:
The Word in John 1:1 is not Jesus.

:dizzy:

Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?

Joh 1:14-18 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. (16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

You're on the wrong side TrevorL.

keypurr · Oct 24, 2018

JudgeRightly said:
Welcome back, Keypurr. Where've ya been!

Before you go off in your own direction, I was wondering perhaps if you could first answer my post from way back when, from the last time I saw you on here.

Here's my post (click the blue arrow to go to the post where it was for context), to which I would very much appreciate an answer.

I left for awhile to cool off and study his words.

There is nothing greater than YHWH.

Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God. You need to deal with the fact that the early Church fathers had no idea what they were teaching.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

'

keypurr · Oct 24, 2018

Right Divider said:
:dizzy:

Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?

Joh 1:14-18 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. (16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

You're on the wrong side TrevorL.

Nope, it is you who lacks understanding. The WORD was not Jesus, IT was IN Jesus.

Right Divider · Oct 24, 2018

keypurr said:
Nope, it is you who lacks understanding. The WORD was not Jesus, IT was IN Jesus.

The lying heretic is back. How not wonderful.

TrevorL · Oct 24, 2018

Greetings again Right Divider,

Right Divider said:
:french: When will you accept scripture?
Jesus said that God was His Father LONG BEFORE HIS BIRTH as a MAN.

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
It's so simple that a child can understand it.

Another verse that also uses the past tense and helps to understand this concept is:
Matthew 25:34 (KJV): Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
When Jesus says that he “had” the glory for which he prays in John 17:5, he is merely asking for the glory which he knew was prepared for him by God from the beginning.

Right Divider said:
:dizzy: Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?
You're on the wrong side TrevorL.

The Word in the beginning was God’s spoken word and the wisdom behind that word:
Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor

JudgeRightly · Oct 24, 2018

keypurr said:
I left for awhile to cool off and study his words.

There is nothing greater than YHWH.

Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God. You need to deal with the fact that the early Church fathers had no idea what they were teaching.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

'

Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

_______________________________________________

Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

"Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

Whereas the alternative was this:

"Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

To which I then asked:

[see original post for the quoted text, linked to above]

So again, Keypurr:

What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

Right Divider · Oct 24, 2018

TrevorL said:
Greetings again Right Divider, Another verse that also uses the past tense and helps to understand this concept is:
Matthew 25:34 (KJV): Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
When Jesus says that he “had” the glory for which he prays in John 17:5, he is merely asking for the glory which he knew was prepared for him by God from the beginning.

It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.

TrevorL said:
The Word in the beginning was God’s spoken word and the wisdom behind that word:

The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word".

You're just completely delusional.

jamie · Oct 24, 2018

keypurr said:
Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God.

That is not what he said.

1Mind1Spirit · Oct 24, 2018

jamie said:
That is not what he said.

True or false.
There is one true God.
There are many false gods.

Jesus' father is the one true God.

1Mind1Spirit · Oct 24, 2018

Right Divider said:
It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.

The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word".

You're just completely delusional.

The word was toward God.

JudgeRightly · Oct 24, 2018

1Mind1Spirit said:
The word was toward God.

Uh, no.

It actually says "the Word was with God and God was the Word."

TrevorL · Oct 24, 2018

Greetings again Right Divider,

Right Divider said:
It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.
The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word". You're just completely delusional.

In the Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:10-11 references, the spoken word and the wisdom and power behind that word take on the language of partial personification. In John 1:1 the Word is a full personification. It is only when we arrive at John 1:14 that this Word and the Wisdom behind this word is made into flesh, and the process is by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is the power of the Highest, God the Father coming upon Mary and conceiving in her womb, and as a result Jesus was born the Only Begotten of the Father, the Son of God, and his character and glory was revealed when mature as full of grace and truth. The alternative proposed by Trinitarians is very ambiguous and contradictory, and does not fit what is revealed concerning the birth of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

keypurr · Oct 25, 2018

JudgeRightly said:
Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

_______________________________________________

Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

"Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

Whereas the alternative was this:

"Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

The standard comes for the creator. If I said it didn't my head must have been in the clouds that day.

Click to expand...

To which I then asked:

[see original post for the quoted text, linked to above]

So again, Keypurr:

What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

Click to expand...

Since the creator set the standard he would be greater than the standard.

Your comparing Apples and Oranges. The standard is not as great as the standard giver. The standard would be his will, what he expects. The world is not as great as the God who made it, neither is the standard.

JudgeRightly · Oct 25, 2018

keypurr said:
Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

_______________________________________________

Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

"Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

Whereas the alternative was this:

"Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

Since the creator set the standard he would be greater than the standard.

Your comparing Apples and Oranges. The standard is not as great as the standard giver. The standard would be his will, what he expects. The world is not as great as the God who made it, neither is the standard.

Could you please fix the formatting?

keypurr · Oct 25, 2018

JudgeRightly said:
Uh, no.

It actually says "the Word was with God and God was the Word."

Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.

JudgeRightly · Oct 25, 2018

keypurr said:
Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.

You're making the claim, now support it with evidence.

Rosenritter · Oct 25, 2018

TrevorL said:
Greetings again Rosenritter, Jesus refers to this unique concept and our record of this is in Greek:
John 10:34-36 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus uses the example of the Judges to answer their false accusation. Just as the Judges represented God, receiving the word of God and acting on God’s behalf and were called by God the Father “Elohim” or “gods”, so Jesus in his greater role as the Son of God represented God and acted on his behalf.

The Psalm speaks of "God" and "the gods." One of those Gods does the judging, whereas the other gods are the ones being judged as unrighteous. Which one of those terms did Jesus apply to himself, and which one did he apply to the Pharisees?

In that same gospel, we see that Jesus had already identified himself as the Judge. In that psalm, that makes him the "God" with the capital G.

The Word in John 1:1 is not Jesus.

Why would you say that? Or rather, in what way would the Word not be properly called Jesus?

God raised him from the dead, therefore he did not have immortality before this event, otherwise he would not die 2 Timothy 1:10.

One portion of scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead, but Jesus also said that he would raise his own body from the dead. If your theory is correct, then these passages stand in disagreement, meaning that either Jesus or the apostle that that was speaking was in error. In case of a dispute, which one has greater authority and takes precedence in a disagreement: Jesus or the apostle?

Spoiler

... but didn't Peter also say that it was not possible that death could take hold of Jesus? There's only one way that it is not possible for death to take hold of a person, and that would be if he already possessed eternal life.

TrevorL · Oct 25, 2018

Greetings again Rosenritter,

Rosenritter said:
The Psalm speaks of "God" and "the gods." One of those Gods does the judging, whereas the other gods are the ones being judged as unrighteous. Which one of those terms did Jesus apply to himself, and which one did he apply to the Pharisees? In that same gospel, we see that Jesus had already identified himself as the Judge. In that psalm, that makes him the "God" with the capital G.

At the time that this Psalm was written, it was Yahweh, God the Father that was going to judge the unrighteous Judges in Israel who were favouring the rich and despising the poor in their judgement. Ultimately Jesus will be the Judge, or Ruler when he returns to establish the Kingdom. At the time of his first coming, Jesus did not directly act as a Judge, but rather suffered at the hands of the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Romans.

Why would you say that? Or rather, in what way would the Word not be properly called Jesus?

John1:1 is before the Word was made flesh. Jesus is the name of the child born.

One portion of scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead, but Jesus also said that he would raise his own body from the dead. If your theory is correct, then these passages stand in disagreement, meaning that either Jesus or the apostle that that was speaking was in error. In case of a dispute, which one has greater authority and takes precedence in a disagreement: Jesus or the apostle?

The Scriptures cannot disagree with each other.

The other theory might be that the scripture is always right... which would make Jesus and God equivalent references.
In three days "I" (Jesus) will raise it up. Not in three days someone else will raise it up. And thanks to Peter in Acts 2, now you have Jesus identified as God.

My understanding of this is that God the Father is speaking through Jesus. God the Father raised Jesus.

Acts 2:24 KJV Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
... but didn't Peter also say that it was not possible that death could take hold of Jesus? There's only one way that it is not possible for death to take hold of a person, and that would be if he already possessed eternal life.

If he had eternal life, then he could not die, but he did die. Acts 2:24 says that the grave could not hold him, and this is because he had done no sin, and thus God's righteousness necessitated that he would be raised from the dead. Because of God’s love and fellowship with His beloved Son also necessitated his resurrection and ascension to heaven to sit at God's right hand. Therefore God raised Jesus from the dead after three days.

Kind regards
Trevor

JudgeRightly · Oct 25, 2018

keypurr said:
Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.

Keypurr, we've been through this before.

If you want to make the claim that the originals were written in Hebrew or Aramaic, you have to show that:

1) Greek was not a common language during Jesus' ministry
2) the Gospels did not quote from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (what
3) the inscription above Christ's head on the cross was not written in Greek
4) the disciples did not speak greek
5) none of the authors of the New Testament spoke Greek
6) You also have to show why, if the New Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the authors needed to translate what was said in those languages.

Also, stop hiding behind a paywall.

As far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong), the only way to read the AENT (which you so adore) is to purchase a copy, whereas most other versions are easily accessible through various free resources. It seems somewhat dishonest that you would use such a version, as it promotes the idea that "only a select few know the truth."

No one wants to buy access to something they'll never use again.

Either provide what the verse says in Aramaic, or provide a link to where it can be read and quoted from.

Is Jesus God?

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