ECT Israel's Promised Kingdom
- Thread starter turbosixx
- Start date
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
History shows Israel did cease from being a nation before God.
Mad teaches Israel ceased, and will be restored.
The only possible explanation is that Israel, the elect individuals, the nation of the Spirit (including Abraham and before ) did not cease being a nation before God as they became the elect of the Church under the new covenant, and the restoration is speaking of the gathering of all the elect at Christ's return into one place with Christ.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
LA
I must add--
Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Isa 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
Isa 62:9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.
Isa 62:10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
(It is not complete but has begun 2000 years ago.)
Read Rev.ch 21.
Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Isa 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
Isa 62:9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.
Isa 62:10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
(It is not complete but has begun 2000 years ago.)
Read Rev.ch 21.
Jerusalem will itself be the temple....the priesthood is changed to Zadokian or Melchi[zidek]ian so the offering is bread and wine.
Cross Reference
New member
Absolutely!
whitestone
Well-known member
turbosixx, are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers" the ones who were in contact with the apostles?
turbosixx
New member
No, I'm not.
whitestone
Well-known member
not sure if you will see this for a while so I will say something/ask you a question,,,
If the apostolic fathers who the apostles "knew",, were made bishops of churches by the apostles and they were of Chiliasm/Milliennialism in their eschatological position's why would the apostles make them bishops if milliennialism was incorrect?
After this point in time many who were later born(ad150/approx.-to present) sprang up and decided that this future fulfillment thing was incorrect/wrong and then began to teach amillilennialism (no mill.),
But does it negate the fact that the apostolic fathers were appointed by apostles and that they were examined by those apostles as to the thing they believed? So if they were examined by the apostles,and taught by the apostles and then chosen by the apostles to fill the position of bishop's and the apostles knew that they still believed in a future fulfillment,then it is also those apostles opinion.
So then if a man comes later in years and he thinks that the apostolic fathers were confused or incorrect they in turn think that the apostles who appointed them were incorrect. Clement in 1clement chapter 42 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm explains that God sent Christ,Christ sent the 12,and the 12 sent those who they appointed(bishops in the churches) and in his opinion to the Corinthians they should remain in that order given.
So if the apostles chose those then, and it was after the destruction of Jerusalem and they still believed in a future fulfillment of prophecy,it was the opinion of those apostles that the mill. concept of thinking was correct.
Many do not agree with this today. Shortly after the 2nd century many began to declare the mill./future position "wrong",in doing so they made the decision to "not follow the apostles".
There are as many positions on eschatology today as there are penny candy in the bottom rack at the store and it can be difficult to choose the one you like,lol. So narrow it down first between amill./mill. and then thats half way at least. Ask your self,, "what did they believe on the subject?",,if not asking everyone about this will then bring a multitude of opinions.
whitestone
Well-known member
Apostolic fathers are those who knew the apostles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers there are also what are referred to as church fathers,Nicene ect...
So there is a group of letters,people that knew the apostles and lived in the end of the 1st cen. and into the 2nd century. And then there are those who knew the ones who knew the apostles but did not meet any of them(apostles),themselves .
In this link there is a list of these letters,people ect. you can look them up by googling Nicene fathers,church fathers apostolic fathers ect. if you don't feel comfortable with this site http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ I like this site because it is set up with hyperlinks (words in blue) so when you get to words and don't know what they mean you can click them learn then the back button takes you back to the article you were reading(I'm not Catholic).
So you can narrow down the letters/people who actually knew the apostles(apostolic fathers),read their letters and determine what those who lived in say,,100ad believed and thought.
There are many others who lived in ad200,ad300,400,ect.ect. if you think about it past the "apostolic fathers"(those who knew the apostles) all the other letters are pretty much the opinion of the writer as to what they think.
So we are all here on TOL and one screen name post a post with their opinion,then someone else does,then the next ect.
The letters that are collected from all of these from back then are also similar the difference is one wrote a letter in ad200(example) and posted it. Then another wrote another and posted it. it's really no different from what we do today in the chat forums.
The thing about it is this,,we reason through the thousands of post and were looking for who actually knows the truth(hard to tell right?) so the "thread" that makes the most sense in time if you consider it is the "apostolic fathers",,,read their post back and forth to each other,they actually knew the apostles and they all believed in a,, mill.future tense fulfillment of the 1000 year kingdom.
think about it,,"kingdom of God" when did that start? was there a kingdom of God in the beginning of creation? What does it mean "thy kingdom come they will be done on "earth" as it...." that is there has always been a "kingdom of God" ,,,the prophecy is about it being on earth the exact same as in heaven.
Interplanner
Well-known member
There are a couple problems here. The earliest documents are not like us on this TOL chat because they were so early.
You've missed something extremely important about how the view of the future comes about. Mt 24 etc said that Israel would be destroyed and the worldwide coming in judgement would take place right after it. But a delay was allowed. Obviously there has been a delay. Peter wrote 2 Peter 3 to show cynics that there was a reason for the delay, but he never mentions anything happening again in Israel. The reason for the delay is that more people would be saved.
Nor do the other passages written about the 2nd coming in judgement like Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, Acts 17, 2 Tim 4, etc. So, there is no 'need' among the apostles teaching for more events in Israel; the only reason given for the delay is that more would be saved.
As time moved on, there was speculation by teachers that there might be something else in Israel, but that's just the point. At that point they become like TOL. It is human thinking and there is no trajectory leading up to it by the apostles. You can search the 2500 uses of the OT by the apostles and you won't see a reason for another 'session' in Israel, or a repeat, or a theocracy at all. For one thing, you would completely un-write what Hebrews was about! Did I mention that was a letter to the Hebrews--to Jewish Christians and/or the whole nation at the time?
Most of all, you would be in conflict with the last presentation Paul made about this kind of thing in Acts 26 (the earlier being Acts 13). There is nothing he is waiting for to happen; Judaism was waiting and missing what had happened! What does that tell you?
turbosixx
New member
I’m familiar with the concept. Reminds me of this:
Judges2:7 The people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, who had seen all the great work of the Lord which He had done for Israel. 8 Then Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of one hundred and ten……10 All that generation also were gathered to their fathers; and there arose another generation after them who did not know the Lord, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel.
The only difference being, I don’t need the writings of men to know the Lord. I can and do know him through his word. Yes, that could be used as a data point in an argument for the millennial reign, be I have problems trusting the writings of men.
Paul says when you read you can understand my insight and I agree with that.
Luke16:31 But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
I look to scripture for proof.
whitestone
Well-known member
lol,those church fathers were chosen as bishops "after the destruction of Jerusalem" ,,If those church fathers who they chose were incorrect in thinking that there were a 1000 years mill. ect then they would have not been chosen.
That's the dilemma,,,why were they made overseers after ad70 when they saw mill. future? Did John who received the Revelation not have a full grasp on things? Why didn't John chose those who thought amill?,,,, Who do we believe you or John?
turbosixx
New member
I do think about the "kingdom of God". Here's where I'm currently at in my understanding.
When God set apart the Jews as his people, what kind of kingdom did he want for them and what kind of kingdom did they want? I suggest they aren’t the same. When I look at 1 Sam. 8 I see the kingdom structured as God wanted it with him ruling in Heaven but the people wanted to be like other nations.
1 Sam.8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; 5 and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
When Jesus talks about the kingdom, it’s clear that it’s not a physical one. He preached for 3 years it was at hand. Looking in Matthew, it appears to me he uses the term church and kingdom interchangeably.
Matt.16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
What do you make of Jesus giving Peter the keys of the kingdom of Heaven? I see him using the keys on Pentecost to let 3,000 souls into the kingdom of Heaven.
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Paul says we’re transferred into Christ’s kingdom. Col. 1:13
Daniel’s prophecy says it will be established during the Roman Empire.
I could go on. To me it seems the future kingdom is based on looking for physical things when in actuality they’re spiritual. From the beginning, what was damaged that the Messiah was to repair?
whitestone
Well-known member
1 Samuel 8:4 KJV shows you realize that they rejected him as king,and that they again rejected him as king in the Gospels.
In Matthew 24:3 KJV they ask him two things "when" and "what would be the signs" so he's giving them the answer to "two different questions" ,,one is times/time and the other is the signs.
look close war(s),,rumor(s),war(s),,earthquake(s) diver(s),,place(s) an "s" added to a word implies Plurality if the answer he gave was singular it would not be stated as plural. In ad70 one aspect of this unfolded,,,the remainder of the plural answer has not,they reject him again after they rebuild the temple they receive another as their king John 5:43 KJV .
I have things I must go do,,,notice he said when they saw wars,rumors he tells them the "end is not yet"(ad70). remember the one question he was answering is "when" and notice he says "divers places",,,most only look in one place.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
It is the Kingdom of Heaven, of God, of Christ. They are one in the same. God has also made the Kingdom open to Gentiles through Christ. It is Spiritual. It is not of this material world. It is in a different realm or perhaps dimmension.
The true spiritual world is always of physical things.
Carnal is the opposite of spiritual, not the physical.
Jesus is still physical today, but according to the spirit, not a spirit.
He is spiritual, has a body from this creation.
This might seem to be another subject, but the Bible speaks of the physical being conformed to the spiritual, and will appear on the earth,
as the Kingdom of God will. Rev.ch 21.
LA
turbosixx
New member
I don't claim to be an expert on Matt. 24 but here is my current understanding.
I see him answering two questions as well. I see his answers as 70AD and his second coming. From 4-28 he is talking about the things that will happen up to the destruction of Jerusalem. These are things that can be seen so the reader will be forewarned. Then in 29-31 he talks about his return. I believe he uses the term immediately to indicate that it will be sudden and that there will be no signs of forewarning to be observed also because it’s what happens next.
Then in 32 he gives them the parable of the fig tree to show them again that they will be able to determine when the destruction is near. Then he says “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place”, which we know to be true of the destruction of Jerusalem. But of his second coming he tells us there will not be signs and we must be always ready. I don’t believe this to be his millennial kingdom because I don’t see other scripture supporting that notion and also because of what happens to those he finds doing evil. Looks like cast into hell to me which would indicate judgment day.
If there is to be a millennial reign, I think there would be more easy to understand scripture to support it rather than hard to understand passages and writings of men which I would not use as a foundation for my reasoning.
When looking at the teachings of Jesus on the kingdom, it has to be spiritual and not physical. That’s the stumbling block, men look for what they want and can’t see what God has given them which is far better. Again, what was the mission of the Messiah? To repair man’s relationship to God (take away the barrier of sin) or to make sure physical Israel got revenge on their enemies?
turbosixx
New member
I agree. That's why souls are added.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Only shown by the Spirit.
but describing physical things --
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Only God is Spirit, Jesus is a man of the creation Rev.ch 5. Luke 24
Our task presently is to conform out physical lives to that of the Kingdom of God by changing things which are now conformed to this fallen world, where possible and with the Lords help.
which only Christ will complete at/after His coming.
Romans 12. It starts with us and spreads out.
People are too reluctant to go against the norm for the good.
LA