James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

Lon

Well-known member
OV does not dispute the immutability of Gods character; it is the immutability of His decisions and/or decrees that is the issue.
There is only so much a finite creature 'can' do so God being 'infinite' can and does know them. I'm not sure where exactly that falls into the discussion but I appreciate your agreement on His nature and Character here on point. :up:

It was a good debate. Points? I'm biased. :)
 

Lon

Well-known member
JW: *insert stunned nonsense here and other information about how systematic theologians have decided for us how it all should be interpreted because we are too stupid on our own*

*high fives Bob Enyart* I literally busted out laughing after BE's comment and James White seeming to try and gather himself with after taking a blow like that.
:nono: It was about the fact that OV has God inside time and thus reasons logically about before and afters.

It isn't quite true that the rest of us believe God is outside of time, but that He is both relational to, but unhindered by time THUS any 'time' restricted logical question is inherently not logical for 'systematic theologians of the past' (iow, all the rest of us but Open Theists).

A 'yes' or 'no' to a question posed, assuming restrictions of time cannot be answered 'yes' or 'no' other than to respond again: "no, God is not subject to time." Bob didn't allow James White to answer with that objection/was only looking for a time-related yes or no. The answer would always have to be "no."
 

Lon

Well-known member
Yeah, it was.

I now wonder if White thinks the 2nd nature was/is completely separate from God (ie. that the 2nd nature was not God in any way, shape, or form).
:think: His 2nd nature is human. The way I would explain this is: God is God. God creates man, in His image. God becomes man, in his image, in His image (a redundancy). For me, there was no change, as I understand it, only a redundancy (clone of a clone of a clone).

Taking on flesh was a temporal anomaly that seems to have had limitations like "no man knows the hour" but I find it dangerous as a completely finite man to try and qualify what happens to infinite as it assumes finite flesh (if it were finite for Him - He said Son of Man rather than Son of God). We have scriptures but I've ever endeavored not to go beyond them into speculations whenever Deity meets flesh regarding divine attributes. A few heresies have formed from such, of which, the known cults are numerous. I can just hear two weirdo's knocking on my door this coming Saturday! :grrr:
 

Jay Walk

New member
Let's be honest, I think you have stars in your eyes on this particular. Such is predictable, however, and certainly devotion to one's pastor is commendable, if even to a fault.

It took a LoooOOOOooong time for Bob to admit yes or no regarding Jesus' obedience to the Father.

The answer, however, is "No, absolutely not. 'He cannot disown Himself.'"
Not 'Yes.'

-Jesus is God.

I also believe Open Theists confuse promise (conditional) with prophecy. There is absolutely no prophecy, ever, that went unfulfilled. I think I covered this with Patman in Open Theism 2 however. I believe we line itemed those prophecies together and I showed the ones he thought were unfullfilled, were all fulfilled, including the promises (promises are always fulfilled upon the resulted foreknown actions of the Israelites, for them to learn and grow).

Holy crap this was extremely sickening to hear. I was cringing at the blasphemy Enyart was spewing during that cross examination. I can't believe how ridiculously low open theists would go in denigrating God to save their golden calf of free will. They are no different from atheists who reject God because they want autonomy.
 

Stripe

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Holy crap this was extremely sickening to hear. I was cringing at the blasphemy Enyart was spewing during that cross examination. I can't believe how ridiculously low open theists would go in denigrating God to save their golden calf of free will. They are no different from atheists who reject God because they want autonomy.
I guess your god wrote it in stone such that you would have no choice but to post this little tirade. :)
 

Jay Walk

New member
I guess your god wrote it in stone such that you would have no choice but to post this little tirade. :)

He did while your ignorant god had no idea I would and lacks the power to stop me. Feels good checkmating your god with my free will :)
 

Stripe

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He did while your ignorant god had no idea I would and lacks the power to stop me. Feels good checkmating your god with my free will :)

Why would you try to checkmate God? :idunno:
 

Jay Walk

New member
I like James White's closing statement. Open theism leaves us with uncertainty having a god who could turn evil in 5 minutes or probably already has long before creation and is just deceiving us. This fact alone reduces open theism to absurdity.
 

Stripe

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I like James White's closing statement. Open theism leaves us with uncertainty having a god who could turn evil in 5 minutes or probably already has long before creation and is just deceiving us. This fact alone reduces open theism to absurdity.

God cannot turn evil. He cannot deny Himself.
 

npatterson85

New member
This post is primarily directed towards Nimrod and Nang,

I admit to painting some gross pictures of Reformed Theology, and thus, was questioned on whether or not I was actually ever really Reformed in the first place. I've heard that comment before, because it seems to me at least, that if I was "truly" Reformed, I would have never walked away from that view of scripture in the first place. I started off as a “Cage Calvinist” as they are called, beginning w/ Mark Driscoll (loved Him, but eventually not so much), R.C. Sproul, LOTS of John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, Matt Chandler, and a few others. This was “Pre-Confessions” Calvinist Nate (that’s my real name btw. :))

I still respect Reformed individuals in their zeal for the Theological System that they hold so dear, and fight to the death believing it is the one and only truth of scripture, and that there is no other view than the Doctrines of Grace that bring the most glory to the triune God. I disagree though that it is the only system that brings God the most glory.

Personally, I maintain a very Arminian foundation which is found in the "FACTS" posted on the Society of Evangelical Arminians site, which is briefly laid out in the following LINK. But also believe the Open and Relational Theology to be true, in which the future is partly settled, and partly open, and that regeneration is synergestic.

My comments about referring to Calvinism as a form of Catholicism though are personal, because that's how it seems to me. It seems the thing they were trying to get away from in the Reformation, ended up being the way things went down, ie: Calvin practically running the government in Geneva, having people who disagreed theologically killed, etc. That rubs me the wrong way, and if that comes off harsh, forgive me. And the Reformed view is the only one I know that has a Catechism and other confessions of faith laying out their beliefs, outside of what Roman Catholics do. I’m not saying it’s entirely bad, because if anything is provides some consistency which I think we could all use in our theological systems.

And to be completely honest, the Reformed individuals I've come into contact with, which has mainly been online, have seemed to only be capable of defending their beliefs by reciting the 3 Forms of Unity, ie: Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dordt. I myself was a big proponent of the London Baptist Confession of Faith when I was an adherent of Reformed Theology. I admit they are very detailed in laying it all out, and that is quite nice for someone who needs a reference point and I feel anyone who wants to even learn about Reformed Theology should take their confessions, and study them alongside the scriptural proofs they provide, so a better understanding is acquire, and we can avoid the misrepresentations we are all capable of presenting when arguing / debating.

My personal studies though led me away from that view point one day when I was challenged to just read Romans 9 – 11 without the “Reformed lens” as I mentioned in a previous post, and after that I was unable to see it any other way, which drew me out of the Reformed way of interpreting scripture. I did not see individual election, I saw election to service. That God was using Israel as his instrument to bring about the promises of the covenant he made with Abraham, and that Paul was pointing out that just because the Jews were descendant from Abraham, did not mean they were part of the covenant promise which came through Isaac and Jacob, and not Ishmael. I don’t see any form of “election to salvation” doctrines in those texts.

These are just my personal views, and am obviously still learning more and more as God reveals himself to me throughout my daily readings of scripture (10 chapters in 10 different books a day, CRAZY!), prayer, and study of passages much more in depth each day.

I just thought I should respond properly since I am new here, and seemed to be coming out of the gate swinging and very brash initially. So here is a form of apology, and laying out where I stand on things.

I look forward to more dialoguing with everyone here, including the Reformed individuals such as Nang, Lon, Nimrod, and Ask Mr. Religion. :)
 

Jay Walk

New member
Why would you want to checkmate God? :idunno:

You don't get it, I do it by nature. I can't "not do it"

StripeGod said:
cannot turn evil. He cannot deny Himself.

Not according to Enyart, its possible his god can turn evil and deny himself as he said in the cross examination. Careful now, you're forcing your god into a choice or lack of choice. What happen to free will being the main object of worship and something not to be touched? You are starting to show inconsistency within your worldview.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Do you believe that when God said the following He meant it?
The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
True. Yes He meant it. Does that mean He didn't know the response?
I think I covered this with Muzman in OT 3. He said if I offer a cone,upon the premise that they clean their room, knowing they won't amounts to a lie. I told him absolutely not. I've said what 'doing the thing' would amount to and it is true, whether they do it or not or whether I know they will or not. Foreknowledge changes nothing of intent. It is no lie. Open Theology, I do not believe, understands the difference between promise which may be changed (specifically from man's perspective) and prophecy. A prophecy MUST come true. All prophecies have come true. OV confuses these (again covered at length in OV 2 & 3 I think even 1 as well).
Links:

Open Theism 1

Open Theism 2

Open Theism 3

Note: Only open theism 3 is active. The rest are closed due to bandwidth considerations (are long).
 

Lon

Well-known member
Why would you want to checkmate God? :idunno:
I think he's just saying the 'god represented by open theism' not as he understands him. The challenge then is against the Open view of God, if I'm reading correctly.
 

Stripe

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You don't get it, I do it by nature. I can't "not do it"
:AMR: You believe God made you to checkmate Him?

Not according to Enyart, its possible his god can turn evil and deny himself as he said in the cross examination. Careful now, you're forcing your god into a choice or lack of choice. What happen to free will being the main object of worship and something not to be touched? You are starting to show inconsistency within your worldview.

I don't think you have any idea what I believe, nor any serious interest in finding out. :idunno:
 

Stripe

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I think he's just saying the 'god represented by open theism' not as he understands him. The challenge then is against the Open view of God, if I'm reading correctly.

I have no idea what he is trying to say. :)

If there is something I have said that you believe to be incorrect, let me know and we'll see if we can't work it out. :thumb:
 

Lon

Well-known member
I have no idea what he is trying to say. :)

If there is something I have said that you believe to be incorrect, let me know and we'll see if we can't work it out. :thumb:
I 'think' so but I'm no mindreader :)

I guess your god wrote it in stone such that you would have no choice but to post this little tirade. :)

His responses seem to be about what 'your god' wrote back at you. That's how I'm reading him, turning your own words. Again, it's a guess, I think it's educated but I'm all open to being wrong on this one. :)
 

Stripe

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I 'think' so but I'm no mindreader.
There is no need to read my mind to know what I have written.

His responses seem to be about what 'your god' wrote back at you. That's how I'm reading him, turning your own words. Again, it's a guess, I think it's educated but I'm all open to being wrong on this one. :)
He's all yours. :up:
 
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