In case you missed it John 1:14 says the word became flesh and dealt among us.
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
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Let's simplify this.
In the beginning was my hand. My hand was with me. My hand was me.
The word is a personification of God's plan, purpose, promise, etc. It's not a separate being anymore than my hand is.
In John 1:14, the promise takes human form. The reason and need for this is explained in Hebrews 2.
Your hand and your word are two entirely different things. Your word is you. So John 1:1 in your opinion is wrong ? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God.
It still isn't a separate person.
Just like in the Old Testament, the word doesn't act as a separate person.
Only your interpretation of it.
That was the point your word is not a sepetate person so based on John 1:1;1:14; 8:58 and other verses Jesus is God unless you ignore the context of the verses and or change what they mean to follow others who miss their meaning.
The context of the verses clearly shows the opposite - Jesus is not God. Here is my discussion of John 8:58.
I would add that in the following chapter, the blind man says the exact some words - I AM. Is the formerly blind man, God?
I am well aware of the context of the of the verse and I embrace the context as I do the entire Bible.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. He who ?Answer:God
John 20:28,29
| 8 ¶ And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. |
| 29 ¶ Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. |
The answer is actually the Messiah. Mark 8:29
What you wrote is a textbook example of eisegesis and "begging the question". You have an assumption - "Jesus is God" - and then you use that assumption in your argument and interpretation of scripture. It's a logical fallacy as well as an awful hermeneutic.
John is wrapping up his gospel at this point and so this refers back the the very beginning. John 1:18
What John is emphasizing is how Jesus revealed God to us - not that Jesus is God. So, Thomas is speaking to two people. The first is Jesus standing before him. The second is God who is revealed through Jesus.
Continue reading to
John 20:31 NLT
But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.
John's reason for writing the gospel is so that Christians will continue to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God - not that Jesus is God.
Question begging.
Why do you think that Jesus Himself could not have been speaking in third person about Himself?
You'd have to ask the person who decided to put these verses into red. Unfortunately, he died in 1910. So that may be a bit difficult.
I will point out that "Son of Man" was a term Jesus often used to refer to Himself, and yes, in third person (for example: John 5:19). To include this passage (John 3:10-31) as His own words is NOT inconsistent with the rest of His words throughout scripture.
I'm also not aware of any place in John's Gospel (the passage in question notwithstanding) where "Son of Man" is recorded as being from either John himself as commentary or by someone who is speaking other than Jesus.
In addition: even Matthew, Mark, and Luke record Jesus as referring to Himself in the third person as the "Son of Man," among other things.
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| Heb.1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness isthe sceptre of thy kingdom |
Actually it is called begging the question.
Yes. That is a possibility. However, since Jesus usually didn't talk in the third person about himself and talking about oneself in the third person is usually a symptom of insanity, I would say the ball is in your court - not mine.
I didn't ask a dead person. I asked you if you held a preconceived belief because the verses were place in red.
1. The Greek verbs which follow verse 12 indicate completed events.
2. "only begotten Son" was not used by Jesus - only John. John 1:14, 18, 1 John 4:9.
3. "in the name of" was not used by Jesus - only John. John 1:12, 2:23, 1 John 5:13.
4. "do the truth" occurs elsewhere only in 1 John 1:6
I do have to give credit to E. W. Bullinger for compiling these four.
There is a common mistranslation in verse 14. The tenses for the verbs are the same, yet the second one is commonly changed to fit the trinitarian narrative. The NIV and other translations have already stopped the red lettering at verse 15.
There are some definite inconsistencies. The first is that the disciples have not been given this much detail about what was going to happen yet. However, he was going to spill the beans to the enemy Pharisee first? No questions asked by Nicodemus as Jesus tells the whole story?
As for 1 John 5:19.
1. It's present tense as oppose to past tense.
2. It is not outside the bounds of normal language and communication. If I'm describing my job as a welder, I may very well be speaking in third person. If I am discussing the relationship between a pastor and a congregation, I may use the third person even if I'm the pastor or the congregation. This is especially true if I am speaking to people who seem to have no clue what a welder does or what the relationship between a pastor and a congregation is like.
Right Divider
Body part
Either way of putting it is perfectly acceptable and means exactly the same thing Mr. Pedantic.
Tigger 2
Active member
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:8 is one of the more commonly used scriptures for trinitarian “evidence” in spite of (in reality, because of) its obvious ambiguity. This is because on the surface (at least as found in some trinitarian-translated Bibles) it looks clear and straightforward. Also not many people have the means or the inclination to examine it more closely.
Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:
“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the oldest manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.
But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the oldest manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.
Yes, literally the oldest NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”
Oxford professor and noted trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century New Testament - ‘God is thy throne….’
The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, and Byington’s, (“God is your throne”).
Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
Hebrews 1:8 is one of the more commonly used scriptures for trinitarian “evidence” in spite of (in reality, because of) its obvious ambiguity. This is because on the surface (at least as found in some trinitarian-translated Bibles) it looks clear and straightforward. Also not many people have the means or the inclination to examine it more closely.
Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:
“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the oldest manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.
But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the oldest manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.
Yes, literally the oldest NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”
Oxford professor and noted trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century New Testament - ‘God is thy throne….’
The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, and Byington’s, (“God is your throne”).
Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
I have zero confidence in any manu- scripts that the Roman Catholic Church controlled and promoted, and that is why I stay with a majority text translation the KJV.
OZOS
Well-known member
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
The context of Col 1:15-18 is Jesus.
"He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus). And He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him (Jesus) all things consist. And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He (Jesus) may have the preeminence".
The context of Col 1:15-18 is Jesus.
"He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus). And He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him (Jesus) all things consist. And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He (Jesus) may have the preeminence".
Tigger 2
Active member
But even the Textus Receptus used for the KJV says: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”
The two added verbs ('is') found in most Bibles are not in the texts, but are added wherever the translator would prefer.
This is also shown in the KJV by its use of italics for the two uses of 'is' in Heb. 1:8.
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Right Divider
Body part
Hebrews 1:8 is QUOTING the Psalms:
But the author of Hebrews makes it clear that the Psalm is talking about GOD the SON.