Judge Sentences Embryos to Death - Against Mother's Wishes

glassjester

Well-known member
From: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...zen-embryos-even-though-she-may-be-infertile/

Now, a California trial court has weighed in on a case involving a divorced couple in which the ex-husband wanted the embryos destroyed while the ex-wife wanted to preserve them. The judge ruled in favor of the ex-husband, saying the two had signed a valid contract prior to receiving fertility treatment agreeing that in the event of divorce, the embryos would indeed be thawed and discarded.

The fact that the woman, a 46-year-old cancer survivor, may not be able to conceive again did not trump the contract.

“It is a disturbing consequence of modern biological technology that the fate of the nascent human life, which the Embryos in this case represent, must be determined in a court by reference to cold legal principles,” Judge Anne-Christine Massullo of San Francisco Superior Court wrote in the decision. “However, only an infinitesimally small percentage of the four million frozen embryos currently in storage in the United States are destined to be implanted and brought to life. There must be rules to govern the disposition of the rest.”

...

As the decision noted, Steven Findley and Mimi Lee met at Harvard University in 1988. Findley became a financier; Lee, who studied piano at Julliard, became an anesthesiologist. Though they lived on different coasts, they became romantically involved in 2010. Almost immediately, they were faced with an important question: whether to have children. Both were, after all, in their 40s — Lee had also had four abortions, including one at age 37, because “she had not yet found the right person with whom she wanted to have a child.”

...

“Lee explained to Findley that after recently spending time alone with her nephew, it taught her something about how much she wanted to be a parent, and that she was going to pursue legal action for the Embryos,” Massullo wrote. “Findley explained to Lee how difficult it would be for him to be forced to be a parent of a child outside of the marriage and suggested using a mediator to try and resolve the issue. Lee declined.” Findley also reported he “fears Lee would manipulate the child or children to extract money from him.”

...

“The plain language of the Consent & Agreement establishes the intent of the parties,” the judge wrote. “Nonetheless, and even assuming the Court found it necessary to look outside of the document to determine the intent of the parties, Findley and Lee both testified at trial that the purpose of undergoing the IVF process was to preserve the option of having children together: not as single people.”

...

“Findley’s right not to be compelled to be a parent with Lee outweighs Lee’s right to have a biologically related child.”
Judge Massullo also expressed “serious concerns about Lee’s credibility.” The conclusion: The court ordered the embryos to be destroyed.

What does this mean for others facing similar disputes around the country? The court declined to say whether there was a constitutionally-protected “right to procreate” or one “not to procreate.” It also declined to decide whether embryos are property.


What a mess.

How long before courts order abortions, against mothers' wishes, so that men can't be "compelled to become a parent" ?
 

Granite

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Hall of Fame
She should've thought through the contract. Her decision. Actions have consequences.

And nothing's being "murdered" here.
 

Granite

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It doesn't say murder anywhere in the article.



Murder on the mind?

"Embryos to death"? Not exactly subtle, pal. Nothing's being put to death or dying or killed here. And if she's having second thoughts about a contract lawyer up.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
"Embryos to death"? Not exactly subtle, pal. Nothing's being put to death or dying or killed here. And if she's having second thoughts about a contract lawyer up.

Nothing is going to die, as a result of this decision?
The embryos will survive their destruction?


I don't think saying that the embryos will be killed is really a point of contention, here.
 

alwight

New member
The point here is that the storing of embryos for "possible" future use is about choice, not that they must be deemed sacred regardless of the current and future wishes of both potential parents.
Freezing embryos is about possible future human choices (pro choice) not the supposed rights of potential human life.
In this case the right of choice is equal for both the man and the woman.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
The point here is that the storing of embryos for "possible" future use is about choice, not that they must be deemed sacred regardless of the current and future wishes of both potential parents.
Freezing embryos is about possible future human choices (pro choice) not the supposed rights of potential human life.
In this case the right of choice is equal for both the man and the woman.

Should a court be allowed to order a woman to have an abortion if the father doesn't want to be "compelled to be a parent" ?
 

Nick M

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How is this news? Is it supposed to be a "See I told you so"? If so, then correct. Abortion is not about choice, it is about getting people to think small children are not human and killing them is ok.
 

alwight

New member
Should a court be allowed to order a woman to have an abortion if the father doesn't want to be "compelled to be a parent" ?
Good question.:think:
It seems to me that if the father has not expressly consented then at least he should not be liable to provide financial support nor any other legal rights normally due to his offspring, inheritance say. If all that is understood and legally applies then I'd personally see no need to impose an abortion if all concerned agreed.
But without paternal consent the woman has presumably committed contempt of the law? :think:

If I constructed a building without obtaining all the correct building permits then even if it were an excellent, beautiful and well built construction then the local authorities would probably make me demolish it, because the law cannot be seen to be circumvented.

And what if the man insisted that under no circumstances did he want to be a biological father, I hear you say?

I'd say that is why we have judges and I'm no legal eagle. ;)

However I don't think that was a complete cop out by me because if I had to do the choosing then I would probably do so on all the specific circumstances and timings, not some predetermined dogma.
But many judges otoh will often take a very dim view of contempt for the law and perhaps might well enforce a prompt early term abortion would be my lay guess, where I perhaps wouldn't want to since I'm not here to uphold the law.
But legally forcing a later term abortion wouldn't be at all likely imo. :nono:
 

Tambora

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How is this news? Is it supposed to be a "See I told you so"? If so, then correct. Abortion is not about choice, it is about getting people to think small children are not human and killing them is ok.
Agreed.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Good question.:think:
It seems to me that if the father has not expressly consented then at least he should not be liable to provide financial support nor any other legal rights normally due to his offspring, inheritance say. If all that is understood and legally applies then I'd personally see no need to impose an abortion if all concerned agreed.

Then why couldn't the court do that in this case?
They could have said that he was not responsible in any way for the continued existence, or any possible later development, of the embryos.

But instead - the court demands they be killed.


If it can work with these embryos, why not any embryos? What if these embryos had been in her womb instead of in a freezer? How would the same ruling not apply? Specifically - The man has a "right" to not be "compelled to become a parent."
 

republicanchick

New member
What a mess.

man likes to play God

would hate to be those "justices" on Judgment Day.. They think they are going 2 get away with something...


ha ha... What I have learned in studying Catholicism is that no one gets away with ANYTHING



pay now or pay later but u WILL pay...


yes, there is a Purgatory... but that is only for those who have TRULY followed Christ... not many of those around... so looks like Hell will always be crowded



___
 

alwight

New member
Then why couldn't the court do that in this case?
They could have said that he was not responsible in any way for the continued existence, or any possible later development, of the embryos.

But instead - the court demands they be killed.
Well, "killed" regarding something which in fact isn't actually living (frozen) is imo inappropriate and emotive.
My understanding here iirc is that the court was called upon to rule because the man did not want it to go ahead, so that's what it did and made a final decision. The argument being that it had been a future choice for both parties to make, not just the woman.


If it can work with these embryos, why not any embryos? What if these embryos had been in her womb instead of in a freezer? How would the same ruling not apply? Specifically - The man has a "right" to not be "compelled to become a parent."
I don't think there is any ownership issue for the courts if the potential future human life is currently not frozen and is developing naturally inside a woman.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
How is this news? Is it supposed to be a "See I told you so"? If so, then correct. Abortion is not about choice, it is about getting people to think small children are not human and killing them is ok.

At what point in the development process does the combination of egg and sperm become a "small child"?
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Well, "killed" regarding something which in fact isn't actually living (frozen) is imo inappropriate and emotive.

They wouldn't store dead embryos. There'd be no point in implanting them. They are made up of living cells. This is objectively true.


I don't think there is any ownership issue for the courts if the potential future human life is currently not frozen and is developing naturally inside a woman.

Except that's the exact situation the husband wanted not to happen. If any of the embryos was allowed to develop inside a woman, he would be "compelled to become a parent." The judge said he has the "right" to not allow that to happen.

Any lawyer could easily argue that his own client has this same disgusting "right."


If, as you say, having the embryo in the woman's body would automatically relieve him of all ownership, then the court would not have had to rule as they did. She would never have been able to "compel him to become a parent," if the moment the embryos were implanted, he ceased to be associated with them.
 
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Nick M

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At what point in the development process does the combination of egg and sperm become a "small child"?

It isn't development. It is the conception of the egg and sperm. A newborn cannot live unless supported directly by the former host. So to say it can't make is invalid, as it always has been.

Obama is right, put the baby on the table and let it die. It will. It will die of dehydration. Even without a puncture wound to the back of the neck by a "doctor".

I realize a liberal like you looks at a retarded child sees it isn't developed and wants to murder it for its physical short comings compared to you.
 
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