Mid Acts Disponsationalism

Mid Acts Disponsationalism


  • Total voters
    45

heir

TOL Subscriber
Paul delivered the sacrament of the Lord's Supper to the Corinthians for them to engage:
You don't read or believe the text; only your presupposition of what you have been told to believe by the relig. denominational system's twisting of the text.

Paul is clearly recalling that which the Lord said to the 12, not Paul instructing the Corinthians to practice it!

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
My heritage comes through Catholocism. That's my church history. But I think the RCC has fallen into some errors that it needs to correct.

The point is that my doctrine is at least traceable back to the early church.

I'm literally stunned that you don't see how you just lopped off the head of your own argument but I really should make a more concerted effort to get used to it because it seems to happen on a daily basis around here.

Be that as it may, the belief in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth and a pre-tribulation rapture existed at least as early as the 2nd century. Here's a quote from The Shepherd of Hermas (c. 100-160 AD)...

”I saw a huge beast (a la Revelation, chapter 13). The beast has four colors (which echoes the four horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev. 6). It is 100 feet long, but I escaped from it, thanks to the grace and power of God.”
Then Hermas meets a virgin dressed in white, who tells him, “Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast, have not doubted. Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the Great Tribulation which is to come. If you therefore prepare yourself and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentence, then you shall be able to escape it.” - Source

In the late 3rd century we have Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.) who wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In it he says this...

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution." - Source

And also in the 4th century, a Christian author named Ephraim the Syrian wrote a small book titled Anti-Christ and the End of the World, published in 376 AD.

“Let us prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms the world. Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh. Believe you me, because the end of the world is at end. Believe me because it is the very last time. Because all Saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at any time the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest and angels armed and prepared hold sickles in their hands awaiting the empire or kingdom of the Lord. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying, and murderous one who is born from the tribe of Dan.. he is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin mixed with an evil or worthless spirit.

“Therefore when he receives the kingdom, he orders the Temple of God to be rebuilt for himself which is in Jerusalem who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God in order that he may be adored by all nations. Then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for 42 months. Just as the holy Apostle says in the Apocalypse which becomes 3 1/2 years--1260 days. Then when the 3 1/2 years have been completed, the time of Antichrist through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know and on the day when the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the son of man. And coming forward, the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty with the sign of the word of salvation going before Him.” - Source


As it turns out, nearly all of the early church "fathers" believed in a literal reading of scripture and thus both an eminent return of Christ, a per-tribulational removal of the church (not called the rapture until the 19th century, which is irrelevant) and a thousand year reign of Jesus as King in Israel from Jerusalem.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Sure, I'll do it but now we have something called "net rep"? I'll tell you what....you miss a few days and the whole world changes. :chuckle:

Yes, I intended to neg rep LA and hit the button on the wrong post! :doh:
 

musterion

Well-known member
My heritage comes through Catholocism. That's my church history. But I think the RCC has fallen into some errors that it needs to correct.

I won't waste our time asking for a list of "some."

Can a person be justified by God by doing everything the Roman Catholic Church says one need do to be saved?
 

musterion

Well-known member
Nah, he relayed to the Corinthians what the LORD had commanded the Twelve...to make a point.

Should be an interesting re-study.

As I find that often, what Paul relays about a thing towards making a point, is often taken by many to be the point itself.

Nothing like ignoring the fact that when they came together it was not to eat the Lord's supper although that is what they may have been calling it. LOL

I'll ask: why did Paul refer to it? Dead honest question, looking for insights.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
I won't waste our time asking for a list of "some."

Can a person be justified by God by doing everything the Roman Catholic Church says one need do to be saved?

Yes, because one of the things the RCC says one needs to do is place their faith in Christ.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
I'm literally stunned that you don't see how you just lopped off the head of your own argument but I really should make a more concerted effort to get used to it because it seems to happen on a daily basis around here.

Be that as it may, the belief in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth and a pre-tribulation rapture existed at least as early as the 2nd century. Here's a quote from The Shepherd of Hermas (c. 100-160 AD)...

”I saw a huge beast (a la Revelation, chapter 13). The beast has four colors (which echoes the four horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev. 6). It is 100 feet long, but I escaped from it, thanks to the grace and power of God.”
Then Hermas meets a virgin dressed in white, who tells him, “Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast, have not doubted. Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the Great Tribulation which is to come. If you therefore prepare yourself and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentence, then you shall be able to escape it.” - Source

You do realize, of course, that the Shepherd of Hermes was a Gnostic, right?

And that pre-mill isn't exclusive to dispensationalism?

In the late 3rd century we have Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.) who wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In it he says this...

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution." - Source

And also in the 4th century, a Christian author named Ephraim the Syrian wrote a small book titled Anti-Christ and the End of the World, published in 376 AD.

“Let us prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms the world. Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh. Believe you me, because the end of the world is at end. Believe me because it is the very last time. Because all Saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at any time the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest and angels armed and prepared hold sickles in their hands awaiting the empire or kingdom of the Lord. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying, and murderous one who is born from the tribe of Dan.. he is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin mixed with an evil or worthless spirit.

“Therefore when he receives the kingdom, he orders the Temple of God to be rebuilt for himself which is in Jerusalem who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God in order that he may be adored by all nations. Then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for 42 months. Just as the holy Apostle says in the Apocalypse which becomes 3 1/2 years--1260 days. Then when the 3 1/2 years have been completed, the time of Antichrist through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know and on the day when the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the son of man. And coming forward, the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty with the sign of the word of salvation going before Him.” - Source


As it turns out, nearly all of the early church "fathers" believed in a literal reading of scripture and thus both an eminent return of Christ, a per-tribulational removal of the church (not called the rapture until the 19th century, which is irrelevant) and a thousand year reign of Jesus as King in Israel from Jerusalem.

Resting in Him,
Clete

But no one actually created any "dispensations of grace" as Dispensationalists do. That's an invention of the 1800s.

And, for that matter, there aren't any distinctions between believing Jews and Gentiles until the 1800s, either.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
You don't read or believe the text; only your presupposition of what you have been told to believe by the relig. denominational system's twisting of the text.

Paul is clearly recalling that which the Lord said to the 12, not Paul instructing the Corinthians to practice it!

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Sorry, but it is you that are clearly ignoring the text:

17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,[d] 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

Paul clearly instructed them to engage in this sacrament, and is rebuking them for their poor execution of it.

Ignore the text at your own peril.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Nah, he relayed to the Corinthians what the LORD had commanded the Twelve...to make a point.

17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,[d] 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

He also told the Corinthians to engage this sacrament. That's why he's rebuking them for their poor execution of it.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
I'll ask: why did Paul refer to it? Dead honest question, looking for insights.

The easy quick answer is: Because they were doing something and calling it the Lord's Supper. I see much rebuke in 1 Corinthians, as they were doing many things they shouldn't have been doing. I believe those that said "I follow Cephas" were to blame.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
The easy quick answer is: Because they were doing something and calling it the Lord's Supper. I see much rebuke in 1 Corinthians, as they were doing many things they shouldn't have been doing. I believe those that said "I follow Cephas" were to blame.

Then why was Paul calling them out for HOW they were executing the Lord's supper, and not just for doing it at all?
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
How often should we do it?

That isn't specified. What IS specified is that we should all come together and break bread and drink the wine as equals, rather than one asserting superiority over another by how much wine or bread they brought.

And that's what Paul is telling them. They SHOULD partake of the Lord's Supper together as community.
 
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