ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[turbosixx]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

 

[God's Truth]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

As stated in Mark 16:16...will be saved.

So we know from the scriptures that we can be saved now, and if we keep obeying we will be saved in the end.

I believe Mark 16:16 is Jesus speaking about being saved when he comes again.

Water baptism is done when someone repents of their sins. All must repent of their sins to be saved. Water baptism was done when one heard the gospel and wanted to be saved.

SAVED

Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace youhave been saved.


WILL BE SAVED


Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.



The scriptures do not contradict and we know from the scriptures that some were saved before water baptism.

I believe all should be water baptized whether or not they were already saved.

 

[God's Truth]

By the way, turbosixx, so glad you made this thread.

 

[turbosixx]

As stated in Mark 16:16...will be saved.

Yes, "will be" because they have to believe and be baptized first. Also, he is instructing the apostles on what the people need to do so it's all future at this point but that doesn't change the order.

So we know from the scriptures that we can be saved now, and if we keep obeying we will be saved in the end.

I agree.

I believe Mark 16:16 is Jesus speaking about being saved when he comes again.

I disagree. I suggest we look at the parallel passage to this one in Matthew. Before Jesus ascended into heaven, he sent the apostles out on the great commission and gave them instructions on how to make disciples (Christians).
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
So if we look at how the two passages compliment each other, we see that when someone believes the gospel and is baptized in the name of Jesus, that is how they become a Christian.

The scriptures do not contradict and we know from the scriptures that some were saved before water baptism.

I agree that they do not contradict.

 

[turbosixx]

By the way, turbosixx, so glad you made this thread.

It should be good for both of us and whoever wants to join in.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, "will be" because they have to believe and be baptized first.

I gave you scriptures where Jesus only speaks of 'will be saved' and it is about in the end. It is about in the end.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Also, he is instructing the apostles on what the people need to do so it's all future at this point but that doesn't change the order.

The order is about the end.

I agree.


I disagree. I suggest we look at the parallel passage to this one in Matthew. Before Jesus ascended into heaven, he sent the apostles out on the great commission and gave them instructions on how to make disciples (Christians).
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
So if we look at how the two passages compliment each other, we see that when someone believes the gospel and is baptized in the name of Jesus, that is how they become a Christian.



I agree that they do not contradict.

Then how will you ever say a person can only get saved AFTER a water baptism when I can give you scripture where people were saved before?

 

[glorydaz]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

Really? Why aren't we seeing this?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

 

[steko]

Really? Why aren't we seeing this?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

I was just wonderin' th' same thing!

 

[God's Truth]

Really? Why aren't we seeing this?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

What do you think isn't seen?

 

[God's Truth]

I was just wonderin' th' same thing!

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but what isn't seen?

 

[turbosixx]

Really? Why aren't we seeing this?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

Thanks for joining in

If we keep reading, we can see the purpose of those signs.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen

The word has been confirmed so we do not need signs today.

 

[turbosixx]

Then how will you ever say a person can only get saved AFTER a water baptism when I can give you scripture where people were saved before?

That scripture you're talking about is a special situation, the first Gentile converts. It happened only one other time to the apostles. Please consider this:

The apostles:
Acts 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Jesus tells the apostles that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

We can see what that looked like here:
Acts 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
We see being baptized with the Holy Spirit is (1)directly from God and (2)evident by speaking in tongues.

The Gentiles:
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God.
Again we see it was (1) directly from God and (2) evident by speaking in tongues.

We also know it's baptism with the Holy Spirit because Peter says so and says it was just like theirs "at the beginning".
Acts 11: 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Since in this case they received the Holy Spirit before water baptism, Peter commands them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

No one else in scripture is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

I gave you scriptures where Jesus only speaks of 'will be saved' and it is about in the end. It is about in the end.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Those passages are before Jesus' sacrifice so being saved was still future. The ones you used to show "saved" were after Jesus' sacrifice, after the gospel had been preached and people were able to be saved.

Before anyone heard the gospel, Jesus said preach the gospel and those who believe it and are baptized will be saved. When we see Peter preach the first gospel sermon, that is exactly what happens.
Acts 2:47 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
The apostles baptized the believers and they were added.

 

[Anthony Burgess]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

Your words brought 1 Peter 3 to mind, especially 1 Peter 3:21 and around that area. I have always thought of water baptism as a heart action, with the public act being a profession of public faith. I see it like a wedding ceremony of sorts. We are binding ourselves through faith to Jesus and publicly declaring that Love.

 

[God's Truth]

Your words brought 1 Peter 3 to mind, especially 1 Peter 3:21 and around that area. I have always thought of water baptism as a heart action, with the public act being a profession of public faith. I see it like a wedding ceremony of sorts. We are binding ourselves through faith to Jesus and publicly declaring that Love.

I agree, except it doesn't have to be public. I believe that people join denominations for a big reason because of water baptism, they want to do right and get baptized. We don't have to have a pastor baptize us.

 

[God's Truth]

Thanks for joining in

If we keep reading, we can see the purpose of those signs.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen

The word has been confirmed so we do not need signs today.

I agree, the signs were during the laying of the foundation. The foundation has been laid and God already testified to His word.

 

[God's Truth]

That scripture you're talking about is a special situation, the first Gentile converts. It happened only one other time to the apostles. Please consider this:

No, you can't say it was special and never is able to happen again. You are not God and you have no scripture saying it will not happen again. If I reasoned the way you just did then I could say the GENTILES were saved before baptism and that is the way all Gentiles will be saved.

The apostles:
Acts 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Jesus tells the apostles that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

We can see what that looked like here:
Acts 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
We see being baptized with the Holy Spirit is (1)directly from God and (2)evident by speaking in tongues.

The Gentiles:
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God.
Again we see it was (1) directly from God and (2) evident by speaking in tongues.

The speaking in tongues were for a SIGN during the laying of the foundation. Speaking in tongues ceased.

We also know it's baptism with the Holy Spirit because Peter says so and says it was just like theirs "at the beginning".
Acts 11: 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Since in this case they received the Holy Spirit before water baptism, Peter commands them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

No one else in scripture is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

What?!

The only way we know we are saved is that we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I didn't know you were this confused.

 

[God's Truth]

Those passages are before Jesus' sacrifice so being saved was still future. The ones you used to show "saved" were after Jesus' sacrifice, after the gospel had been preached and people were able to be saved.

Before anyone heard the gospel, Jesus said preach the gospel and those who believe it and are baptized will be saved. When we see Peter preach the first gospel sermon, that is exactly what happens.
Acts 2:47 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
The apostles baptized the believers and they were added.

Your argument is moot because the Holy Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said that in Mark 16:16.

 

[God's Truth]

Since in this case they received the Holy Spirit before water baptism, Peter commands them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

A person needs to be baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit or else at that time they were not saved and being only baptized in the name of Jesus meant not receiving the Holy Spirit as is expected. We have to have the Holy Spirit to be saved.

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Anthony Burgess]

I agree, except it doesn't have to be public. I believe that people join denominations for a big reason because of water baptism, they want to do right and get baptized. We don't have to have a pastor baptize us.

Yes