ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

turbosixx

New member
The New Testament times were very special times, to say the least, for it was the laying of the foundation.
I agree and this was one of those special times. So try and imagine why Cornelius' conversion was different than every other conversion based on it's context.

10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”
10:17 Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius,
10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”


11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

The conversion of Cornelius was God's way of proving without a doubt to the Jew's that the Gentiles were now his people too.

The point is, is that Cornelius and his household were SAVED and given the Holy Spirit without laying of hands and before water baptism.

If Cornelius is the norm and not the exception, then please explain this. Here we will see men who had believed in Jesus and baptized in water but not in Jesus name. If you will notice, Paul does not question what they were taught or if they truly believed but when he finds out they didn't receive the Holy Spirit he questions their baptism.
Acts 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
They were taught Jesus but were not baptized into his name as he instructed on how to make Christians. We see that Paul doesn't give them spiritual gifts until after he has made them Christians by baptizing them in the name of Jesus.
19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
 

turbosixx

New member
In Rom 6:4 BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH is not the Greek BAPTIZO but ther Greek word BAPTISMA so check the Greek text and begin to learn what BAPTIISM really means !!


baptisma: (the result of) a dipping or sinking
Original Word: βάπτισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: baptisma
Phonetic Spelling: (bap'-tis-mah)
Short Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism
Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism.

baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize


One is a verb the other a noun. I don't understand your point.
 

God's Truth

New member
I agree and this was one of those special times. So try and imagine why Cornelius' conversion was different than every other conversion based on it's context.

10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”
10:17 Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius,
10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”


11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

The conversion of Cornelius was God's way of proving without a doubt to the Jew's that the Gentiles were now his people too.

Think more about it...God could have waited until AFTER they were water baptized.

If Cornelius is the norm and not the exception, then please explain this.

The point is, is that it doesn't matter if it is the exception or the norm. What matters is that God gives the Holy Spirit to those He accepts. He knew and accepted Cornelius and sent an angel to tell him whom to ask for to hear the message that saves.

Here we will see men who had believed in Jesus and baptized in water but not in Jesus name. If you will notice, Paul does not question what they were taught or if they truly believed but when he finds out they didn't receive the Holy Spirit he questions their baptism.

This shows that they have to believe there is a Holy Spirit. They didn't hear the message that saves yet.
 

turbosixx

New member
Think more about it...God could have waited until AFTER they were water baptized.
Yes he could have but they didn't want to water baptize them.
10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

The point is, is that it doesn't matter if it is the exception or the norm. What matters is that God gives the Holy Spirit to those He accepts. He knew and accepted Cornelius and sent an angel to tell him whom to ask for to hear the message that saves.
I agree God gives the Spirit to those he accepts. Is he going to accept someone who does not obey his son?
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This shows that they have to believe there is a Holy Spirit. They didn't hear the message that saves yet.

If that were true, then Paul only had to tell them about the Spirit and then lay his hands on them because they had already been water baptized.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes he could have but they didn't want to water baptize them.
10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

No, because they as Jews were not even supposed to be in Cornelius' house. Not only were they in Cornelius' house, they were telling Cornelius and his whole household the message that saves.

I agree God gives the Spirit to those he accepts. Is he going to accept someone who does not obey his son?
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Again, God saves those He accepts and they are to continue to obey. If they were saved before water baptism, they should still get water baptized.

If that were true, then Paul only had to tell them about the Spirit and then lay his hands on them because they had already been water baptized.

No, because water baptism is about repenting of sins. The message that saves is about Jesus being the Sacrificial Lamb of God. One must repent of their sins to be saved and water baptism is the ceremony of that which has already happened in the believers heart and mind.
 

turbosixx

New member
water baptism is the ceremony of that which has already happened in the believers heart and mind.
I would suggest that's what the world tells us today. I haven't seen it in the bible.

Look at the conversion of Paul. After he had been blinded by Jesus, fasting and praying for three days then regaining his sight, he still had his sins. There was only one thing left to do. Look at what Ananias tells him.

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
 

God's Truth

New member
I would suggest that's what the world tells us today. I haven't seen it in the bible.
I haven't heard the world say that.

I have heard Catholics and Mormons, and many others preach it as saving in and of itself.

Look at the conversion of Paul. After he had been blinded by Jesus, fasting and praying for three days then regaining his sight, he still had his sins. There was only one thing left to do. Look at what Ananias tells him.

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

That is right, Paul was water baptized, which shows that he repented of his sins.

I will show you that water baptism is a ceremony.

Scripture does say water baptism is a symbol. Read how Peter says Noah and his family were saved through water, and that this water (the water of baptism that Christians do) is symbolic of the baptism (of the Spirit) that now saves you.

1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.


Did you also see how Peter calls it a pledge?

Water baptism is a ceremony where one pledges to God that you understand you will die to the sins of the world and live to please Him.

It is not too much unlike when a couple gets married and pledges to each other promises.
 

God's Truth

New member
Can the pledge be made without water baptism?



Can a couple pledge to each other and be married without going through the ceremony ?

As I tried to make clear from the beginning is that I believe one must get water baptized.

Even if they baptize themselves in a bathtub, or an ocean, or pool.

It is good to have someone to help lift you up though.
 

God's Truth

New member
Matthew 10:32

Baptism doesn't have to be public. There were baptisms done in peoples homes, most probably in their bath tub.

Cornelius and his whole household was probably baptized in his home, as was the jailer and his household.

The eunuch when wanting to be baptized, saw some water, probably well water-drinking water, and not flowing water, because of where they were on the road to Gaza was in the desert. Philip still baptized him in that water, and there was probably no one else around.

Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road–the desert road–that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”
 

Anthony Burgess

BANNED
Banned
Baptism doesn't have to be public. There were baptisms done in peoples homes, most probably in their bath tub.

Cornelius and his whole household was probably baptized in his home, as was the jailer and his household.

The eunuch when wanting to be baptized, saw some water, probably well water-drinking water, and not flowing water, because of where they were on the road to Gaza was in the desert. Philip still baptized him in that water, and there was probably no one else around.

Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road–the desert road–that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

Yes. This is why I generated post #53

Agree
 

Anthony Burgess

BANNED
Banned
Are you saying that is baptism?

No. I was expressing the biblical terminology for the idea of a public profession of faith.

I believe in bedside confessions and dying surrender to Jesus. Some people who do this, were never physically baptized and I know that Jesus will honor His promise to save them.

I don’t think I’m comfortable giving a rigid answer on this.

Some publicly profess and others privately profess. God alone knows the heart. Those are my ultimate thoughts on the questions at hand.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
baptisma: (the result of) a dipping or sinking
Original Word: βάπτισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: baptisma
Phonetic Spelling: (bap'-tis-mah)
Short Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism
Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism.

baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize


One is a verb the other a noun. I don't understand your point.


Hi and VINE'S DICTIONARY is not God inspired and the Greek word BAPTISMA correct word to use is BAPTIZER and that is what it means in Acts 19:4 and in Eph 4:5 !!

Explain 1 Cor 1o:2 as to how Israel was baptized UNTO MOSES , in the CLOUD and in the SEA ??

dan p
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
On the contrary, the public profession is valid in Scripture - but it is Israel's...

Israel, "to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises." (Romans 9:4)
 
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