ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[God's Truth]

Yes

Amen.

 

[DAN P]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

Hi and the Greek word SHALL BE SAVED / SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative mood !!

Why is the Greek FUTURE TENSE USED HERE ?

And explain verse 17 and 18 , and is this happening TODAY ??

No WAY , so are you DISHONEST ??

So water BAPTISM saved and not the BLOOD and where is there FAITH in Christ in Mark 16:16-18 ??

And in verse 20 are SIGNS FOLLOWING YOU ?

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Your words brought 1 Peter 3 to mind, especially 1 Peter 3:21 and around that area. I have always thought of water baptism as a heart action, with the public act being a profession of public faith. I see it like a wedding ceremony of sorts. We are binding ourselves through faith to Jesus and publicly declaring that Love.

I would suggest to you "public profession of faith" is mans twist on scripture. The bible never tells us it's a public profession. By saying that's all it is, makes it easy to prove it's not necessary.

 

[Danoh]

Really? Why aren't we seeing this?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

And yet you erroneously assert THEIR passages about The Spirit's leading THEM unto all THEIR truth, applies to you.

Your pals won't correct you, but you are confusing "programs."

Of course, your closed mind to anyone you end up viewing thru animosity is just one more proof yours is not the Spirit leading you unto all truth.

Get well soon, GD.

Rom. 5:8.

 

[Danoh]

I would suggest to you "public profession of faith" is mans twist on scripture. The bible never tells us it's a public profession. By saying that's all it is, makes it easy to prove it's not necessary.

On the contrary, the public profession is valid in Scripture - but it is Israel's...

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

In contrast to...

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

Thus, we read of the Lord's Words to Israel...

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 17:11,12.

 

[glorydaz]

And yet you erroneously assert THEIR passages about The Spirit's leading THEM unto all THEIR truth, applies to you.

Your pals won't correct you, but you are confusing "programs."

Of course, your closed mind to anyone you end up viewing thru animosity is just one more proof yours is not the Spirit leading you unto all truth.

Get well soon, GD.

Nope, I pointed it out because I do know the difference.

Not even a good try, there danny boy. :baby:

You and Evil are both small men who can't stand that I point that out. Too bad.

 

[turbosixx]

The only way we know we are saved is that we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I didn't know you were this confused.

I can tell you really haven't thought about what I said. I have showed you two situations where the bible says they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. I will suggest to you there are no other place were The bible says they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Every other giving of the Holy Spirit was by the laying of hands.

Consider this case.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

In this case they didn't receive the Holy Spirit directly from God but by laying of hands. The bible does not call this being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
There are no other places in the bible were people are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

If you know of any, I would be glad to look at them.

 

[turbosixx]

Your argument is moot because the Holy Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said that in Mark 16:16.

That is correct but it supports my point. After the Spirit was given, if those people did what Jesus said they will be saved and we can see 3,000 were saved by believing and being baptized. Acts 2:41

When was the Holy Spirit given to man?

 

[turbosixx]

A person needs to be baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit or else at that time they were not saved and being only baptized in the name of Jesus meant not receiving the Holy Spirit as is expected. We have to have the Holy Spirit to be saved.

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Think about what you're saying. How did these people get the Holy Spirit? Is that how we get the Holy Spirit today?

I would suggest to you we are looking at two different things that the Holy Spirit does.
1. When we are baptized in the name of Jesus we are sealed (ownership) by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that put's us into Christ.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2. The early church also got spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit to help establish the church which we both agree ended. In Acts 8:14-16, those people had been baptized into Christ and thus received the Holy Spirit that seals them and adds them to the church but they hadn't received the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. Here is an example of Paul wanting to give Christians(saved) miraculous gifts but he has to do it personally.
Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and the Greek word SHALL BE SAVED / SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative mood !!

Why is the Greek FUTURE TENSE USED HERE ?

And explain verse 17 and 18 , and did this happening TODAY ??

No WAY , so are you DISHONEST ??

So water BAPTISM saved and not the BLOOD and where is there FAITH in Christ in Mark 16:16-18 ??

And in verse 20 are SINGS FOLLOWING YOU ?

dan p

Is this Greek future tense?
1 Cor. 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

No WAY , so are you DISHONEST ??

Is this really necessary?

 

[turbosixx]

On the contrary, the public profession is valid in Scripture - but it is Israel's...

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

In contrast to...

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

Thus, we read of the Lord's Words to Israel...

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 17:11,12.

I'm sorry but I don't see anything there about baptism being a public confession. I do see that it says this about baptism.
Mk. 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

I don't see any public here:
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

 

[God's Truth]

On the contrary, the public profession is valid in Scripture - but it is Israel's...

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

In contrast to...

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

Thus, we read of the Lord's Words to Israel...

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 17:11,12.

You are badly mistaken, for water baptism was not always so public.

Remember the eunuch and Cornelius' household?

 

[DAN P]

Is this Greek future tense?
1 Cor. 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.



Is this really necessary?

Ni and the words being saved is not in the FUTURE TENSE !!

There 2 verbs in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and the other 2 verbs are in the AOTIST TENSE for a total of 4 verbs !!

Most of the time , BUT not always the Greek words SHALL or WILL are in the FUTURE TENSE !!

Sorry that I offend you BUT if you believe that BAPTISM saved and not the BLOOD that Jesus shed , are you being dishonest ??

To me , it shows that you do not understand what Baptism really means ?

Do you see the difference in Acts 19:4 when it says that John BAPTIZED / BAPTIZO and what BAPTISM / BAPTIMA mean !!

We are saved by the gift of Faith , Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9 !! No water here at all !!

dan p

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

Nope, I pointed it out because I do know the difference.

Not even a good try, there danny boy. :baby:

You and Evil are both small men who can't stand that I point that out. Too bad.

If you know then why haven't you answered turbosixx and my request for you to explain what you meant?

 

[turbosixx]

Sorry that I offend you

I'm not offended, I would rather have a name calling free discussion.

BUT if you believe that BAPTISM saved and not the BLOOD that Jesus shed , are you being dishonest ??

I didn't say we are not saved by the blood of Christ. I absolutely believe we are. What I want to determine is how do we access that blood.

To me , it shows that you do not understand what Baptism really means ?

Please tell me what baptism is/does with scriptural support.

 

[God's Truth]

I can tell you really haven't thought about what I said. I have showed you two situations where the bible says they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. I will suggest to you there are no other place were The bible says they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Every other giving of the Holy Spirit was by the laying of hands.

I can prove with scripture that baptism with the Holy Spirit, and the out "pouring" of the Spirit, and the receiving the Holy Spirit, and being saved, and speaking in tongues can all be at the same occurrence.

With all these scriptures I am going to prove my beliefs, and they are all about Cornelius and his household.

Peter says these Gentiles RECEIVED the Holy Spirit. As for Cornelius and his whole household, there is not a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit, a separate pouring out of the Holy Spirit, a separate being saved, and a separate receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on allwho heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Notice that a holy angel told Cornelius to ask Peter to come to his house so that he could HEAR what he had to say? While he and his household is hearing the message that SAVES that is when the Holy Spirit fell on them.

Cornelius and his whole household heard the message first AND then were BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit, which was proof by their gift of tongues BEFORE they were baptized with water Peter says they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit. This was all after HEARING THE MESSAGE THAT SAVES.

Here is another scripture that says Cornelius was going to HEAR the message that saves.

Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."

Acts 11:15-16 "Just as I was starting to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'"

I have shown you with scripture that BEING SAVED, AND BEING BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, the OUT POURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT, and speaking in tongues are not necessarily separate; they can all happen at the same occurrence when one is saved. No one is saved without receiving the Holy Spirit, and that is baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, gifts could come when one is saved or after.

 

[turbosixx]

I can prove with scripture that baptism with the Holy Spirit, and the out "pouring" of the Spirit, and the receiving the Holy Spirit, and being saved, and speaking in tongues can all be at the same occurrence.

You are right. I don't disagree. In this case it all happened at the same time.

With all these scriptures I am going to prove my beliefs, and they are all about Cornelius and his household.

There are about 11 other conversions in the bible, including Paul. Were they all saved the same way as Cornelius? If not, why?

 

[God's Truth]

That is correct but it supports my point. After the Spirit was given, if those people did what Jesus said they will be saved and we can see 3,000 were saved by believing and being baptized. Acts 2:41

When was the Holy Spirit given to man?

The New Testament times were very special times, to say the least, for it was the laying of the foundation.

The Holy Spirit was given, as I showed you in my previous post, was when one was BEING SAVED, AND BEING BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and plainly called RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT.

The Holy Spirit was given with power for the laying of the foundation and as a testimony from God.

The point is, is that Cornelius and his household were SAVED and given the Holy Spirit without laying of hands and before water baptism.

 

[DAN P]

I'm not offended, I would rather have a name calling free discussion.



I didn't say we are not saved by the blood of Christ. I absolutely believe we are. What I want to determine is how do we access that blood.



Please tell me what baptism is/does with scriptural support.

Hi and I did in my post #33 where John baptized/baptizo and where is says BAPTIZED / BAPTISMA and you do not know the difference !~~

In Eph 4:5 it says ONE BAPTISM / BAPTIZO that is not the Greek used in Eph 4:5 as it is the Greek word BAPTISMA !!

In Rom 6:4 BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH is not the Greek BAPTIZO but ther Greek word BAPTISMA so check the Greek text and begin to learn what BAPTIISM really means !!

In Heb 10:9 it says VARIOUS WASHING is the Greek word BAPTISMOS so check the Greek text and SEE !!

This half way through what BAPTIZO means !!

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

You are right. I don't disagree. In this case it all happened at the same time.

I can't tell you how good it is to hear you say that. I have debated people before who believe one must be water baptized before receiving the Holy Spirit and they just would not say they agree that it happened for Cornelius and his whole household.

There are about 11 other conversions in the bible, including Paul. Were they all saved the same way as Cornelius? If not, why?

God saves us and gives the Holy Spirit when he accepts us, and that is after believing the truth and obeying, which didn't always happen the same time. However, in the New Testament times, it usually did happen at the same time. In the New Testament, there was the truth being spoken and right away people were water baptized. In the New Testament times, it meant something that the apostles had a direct connection when someone received the Holy Spirit.

It is not those times anymore.

The foundation has already been laid, and God already testified to His word.

We don't have the benefit of hearing the truth from an apostle with miraculous powers and get water baptized.

So how does a person get saved now that the apostles are long gone? Is it as the Catholics teach that they are the only truth because of apostolic succession? No way, never. So how does one get saved, is it by someone else who is already saved? Well that could help. but not always available.

We now have the written words of God and everything we need to be saved. The Bible tells us how to get saved, it is by searching for God with all your heart and that is only done by getting Jesus' teachings and obeying his teachings. Jesus himself will give his Holy Spirit. That can be before or after a water baptism.