One on One: Mr. 5020 & Knight (II)

[Mr. 5020]

I'm supposed to start this thread. It's a continuation of the last thread, which I had to drop out of because I lost access to my computer.

Basically, I'm talking to Knight about Open Theism. I'm not sold on the open view or the closed view. So, pretty much, this is just a Q&A for me - a chance for me to ask Knight questions about the open view position and get them answered. So....

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Knight,

What is your position on prophecy? Since God doesn't know the future, how does He predict, with such detailed accuracy, future events?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

What is your position on prophecy? Since God doesn't know the future, how does He predict, with such detailed accuracy, future events?

Two main ways....

1. God predicts future events and then brings those events to pass.

2. God knows everything knowable (including human intention) and therefore can predict future events with a high degree of accuracy.

Knight's counter question...
If God ordains every event for all of time, OR if God has seen every event for all of time (prior to it happening) why would any prophecy ever not come to pass?

 

[Mr. 5020]

1. God predicts future events and then brings those events to pass.

How would He do that? Would that involve the temporary removal of free will?

2. God knows everything knowable (including human intention) and therefore can predict future events with a high degree of accuracy.

I don't have a problem with this one; however, if I was on OT prophet, and my life depended on the accuracy of my prophecy, I would hope God was doing more than making an educated guess.

Knight's counter question...
If God ordains every event for all of time, OR if God has seen every event for all of time (prior to it happening) why would any prophecy ever not come to pass?

Did you have any prophecies in mind?

By the way, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How would He do that? Would that involve the temporary removal of free will?

No.

People can influence other people.... how much more so can God influence people?

If God wants something to come about He has the ability to nudge and or pull actions and events. God says Himself...

Isaiah 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

He didn't say "I have DONE it" or "I have already SEEN it" but that He will bring it to pass.

Bringing something to pass is one way God can accurately predict future events.

I don't have a problem with this one; however, if I was on OT prophet, and my life depended on the accuracy of my prophecy, I would hope God was doing more than making an educated guess.

You mean like Jonah?

Did you have any prophecies in mind?

There are dozens!

But since I have already brought up Jonah we could stick with that one for now. God had Jonah give a prophesy that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. That prophesy DID NOT COME TO PASS. Now, either God knew the prophesy was not going to come to pass and was therefore lying when He had Jonah tell Nineveh that they would be overthrown OR God was really planning on destroying Nineveh but later repented of that destruction when Nineveh repented.

What say ye?

By the way, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Tis my pleasure. I love this topic!

 

[Mr. 5020]

I have to go to bed. I have to be at work in a few hours. I'm going to look over Jonah tonight, and I'll reply tomorrow.

Thanks again!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have to go to bed. I have to be at work in a few hours. I'm going to look over Jonah tonight, and I'll reply tomorrow.

Thanks again!

:up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This is gonna be one slow One on One.

 

[Mr. 5020]

This is gonna be one slow One on One.

This is true. I have 2 jobs, a girlfriend, and a split family, so my spare time is scarce, to say the least. But, after all... "One on one" threads are intended to be low pressure.

Moving on...

No.

People can influence other people.... how much more so can God influence people?

If God wants something to come about He has the ability to nudge and or pull actions and events. God says Himself...

Isaiah 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

He didn't say "I have DONE it" or "I have already SEEN it" but that He will bring it to pass.

Bringing something to pass is one way God can accurately predict future events.

I think I'm just having a logic problem with this. He's going to "nudge" the Antichrist to do quite a bit in Revelation?

By the way, I'm still reading Jonah. Bear with me. I guess I'll ask another question in the meantime.

1 John 3:20 says:

For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Wouldn't the future be considered part of "all things?"

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He's going to "nudge" the Antichrist to do quite a bit in Revelation?

Huh?

God doesn't want the anti-christ to do the things that God knows the anti-christ intends to do.

Think of it like this....

God knows everything knowable.

God knows everything! Even the intentions of wicked men (and or angels). So lets imagine there is a wicked man who intends to steal my car tomorrow night (the man has been planning the theft for some time now). Theoretically God could tell me in advance that the man is going to steal my car tomorrow night. God could do all this without exhaustive foreknowledge OR without ordaining the man's actions. He could tell me in advance because God knows everything knowable.

Therefore... God knows Satan's intentions and can therefore accurately tell us the kinds of things Satan intends to do.

Now lets say I am armed with this foreknowledge of the man stealing my car and I take steps to prevent the theft. I could change the course of history and God would be pleased! He wouldn't be mad that I altered the course of history, He would be glad! In fact it would be the only logical reason He told me in the first place! This is how the Bible describes God operating and interacting with mankind.

By the way, I'm still reading Jonah. Bear with me. I guess I'll ask another question in the meantime.

Cool!

1 John 3:20 says:

For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Wouldn't the future be considered part of "all things?"

No.

The passage is saying that there isn't anything we can hide from God. We can't just "act" like we love Him and follow Him. God knows everything knowable and therefore knows if we are being sincere in our faith. Go back and read the entire passage and it will become crystal clear for you. :up:

That being said....
God DOES KNOW ALL THINGS!

It's just that the "all things" is limited to all things knowable. An unsettled future is simply not knowable in an exhaustive way. God likes it that way! God intended that we have freewill.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Huh?

God doesn't want the anti-christ to do the things that God knows the anti-christ intends to do.

You're assuming that the antichrist is alive. How did God know that the antichrist intended to do this 2000 years ago? The antichrist might not be alive yet.

No.

The passage is saying that there isn't anything we can hide from God. We can't just "act" like we love Him and follow Him. God knows everything knowable and therefore knows if we are being sincere in our faith. Go back and read the entire passage and it will become crystal clear for you. :up:

That being said....
God DOES KNOW ALL THINGS!

It's just that the "all things" is limited to all things knowable. An unsettled future is simply not knowable in an exhaustive way. God likes it that way! God intended that we have freewill.

I can agree with that. It wasn't much of an argument, but I had to throw it out there. Like I said, I'm not settled on either side (no pun intended).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I am heading to Casper WY I will try to respond later on my laptop.

 

[Mr. 5020]

I am heading to Casper WY I will try to respond later on my laptop.

:thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You're assuming that the antichrist is alive. How did God know that the antichrist intended to do this 2000 years ago? The antichrist might not be alive yet.

Again... all God needs to know is Satan's intentions and know that He will at somepoint allow a battle to take place. I think Revelation is a book about the "kinds" of things that God knows will take place. It's more like a GIANT warning so you can make plans now to avoid those "kinds" of things.

I can agree with that. It wasn't much of an argument, but I had to throw it out there. Like I said, I'm not settled on either side (no pun intended).

OK... so let me ask you something....

God often dispenses His foreknowledge to us i.e., in the form of prophecy. Why would God tell us what He thinks is going to happen in the future? What is the point of prophecy?

Asked another way (with a specific example)....
Why would God tell Peter ahead of time that Peter was going to deny Christ three times? Why tell Peter that?

Feel free to speculate.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Again... all God needs to know is Satan's intentions and know that He will at somepoint allow a battle to take place. I think Revelation is a book about the "kinds" of things that God knows will take place. It's more like a GIANT warning so you can make plans now to avoid those "kinds" of things.

Do you have any reason to believe that (other than the fact that it goes with your belief system)? The book of Revelation seems pretty detailed. For example:

Revelation 11:3-8 KJV (3)And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. (6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. (8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. (10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. (11) And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

That's a pretty specific prophecy. We know, from the text that (1) God will have two witnesses in the end times, (2) if anybody tries to hurt them, they will be killed by fire proceeding from the witnesses' mouth, (3) the witnesses will have to power to stop the rain, (4) the witnesses will be able to turn the water into blood (as well as other plagues), (5) they will be killed, (6) their bodies will lie in the streets for two and a half days, and (7) they will be resurrected.

OK... so let me ask you something....

God often dispenses His foreknowledge to us i.e., in the form of prophecy. Why would God tell us what He thinks is going to happen in the future? What is the point of prophecy?

Asked another way (with a specific example)....
Why would God tell Peter ahead of time that Peter was going to deny Christ three times? Why tell Peter that?

Feel free to speculate.

I believe that there are two reasons (and I'm just speculating).

1. To get people to repent. Of course, this would only relate to conditional prophecies, such as the one you would see in Revelation 2:16 ("Repent or else...").

2. To prove His deity. What better way for people to marvel than to predict the future. That's why people go to psychics and other such loons.

Edit:
Does believing Open View Theism automatically mean believing that one can lose thier salvation? I've heard this before, and just wanted to ask.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That's a pretty specific prophecy. We know, from the text that (1) God will have two witnesses in the end times, (2) if anybody tries to hurt them, they will be killed by fire proceeding from the witnesses' mouth, (3) the witnesses will have to power to stop the rain, (4) the witnesses will be able to turn the water into blood (as well as other plagues), (5) they will be killed, (6) their bodies will lie in the streets for two and a half days, and (7) they will be resurrected.

My response.... so what?

Again... God can and does bring VERY specific things to pass.

Last week I told my wife specific details about what I was going to the following weekend when I traveled to Casper with my boys for a hockey tournament. I brought all of the specific details to pass as predicted without exhustivley knowing the future.

I believe that there are two reasons (and I'm just speculating).

1. To get people to repent. Of course, this would only relate to conditional prophecies, such as the one you would see in Revelation 2:16 ("Repent or else...").

Do you concede that the future is conditional for God?

In other words.... do you believe that the future is NOT settled from God's perspective but instead is contengent upon conditions that have yet to be met?

2. To prove His deity. What better way for people to marvel than to predict the future. That's why people go to psychics and other such loons.

Very good, there is no other logical reason for prophecy is there? And the fact that God wants to effect our wills via prophecy is proof in and of itself that men have a will of their own. I realize you aren't a full blown Calvinist and probably don't disagree with me on this issue but I think this is an important fact to brought to the surface anyway.

Edit:

Does believing Open View Theism automatically mean believing that one can lose thier salvation? I've heard this before, and just wanted to ask.

Absolutely not. God promises our salvation is secure and gives us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Is there any logical reason that God would have to know the future just to keep a promise?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Do you concede that the future is conditional for God?

In other words.... do you believe that the future is NOT settled from God's perspective but instead is contengent upon conditions that have yet to be met?

I believe that, while we do have the ability to make choices determining our future, God already knows what those choices will be.

Very good, there is no other logical reason for prophecy is there? And the fact that God wants to effect our wills via prophecy is proof in and of itself that men have a will of their own. I realize you aren't a full blown Calvinist and probably don't disagree with me on this issue but I think this is an important fact to brought to the surface anyway.

You're right, I do not disagree with you on this issue.

Absolutely not. God promises our salvation is secure and gives us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Is there any logical reason that God would have to know the future just to keep a promise?

Nope. I was just wondering, since I had heard that (or implications of that) around TOL, though I wasn't able to find that exact post(s).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I believe that, while we do have the ability to make choices determining our future, God already knows what those choices will be.

So then you reject that the future is conditional from God's perspective?

For if God already knows every choice for all of time there are no "conditions" that could alter the future that is settled for God.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Mr. 5020]

So then you reject that the future is conditional from God's perspective?

For if God already knows every choice for all of time there are no "conditions" that could alter the future that is settled for God.

Is that what you are saying?

There's a lot of words there, but, I think so. What I am saying is that God know the decisions we, of our own free will, will make.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There's a lot of words there, but, I think so. What I am saying is that God know the decisions we, of our own free will, will make.

So then, you must reject the idea that some prophecies are "conditional" correct?

In other words...
For a prophecy to be conditional, that prophecy must be contingent upon future "conditions" being met or not met. If the future is settled for God there could be no such thing as contingencies in the future.

 

[Mr. 5020]

So then, you must reject the idea that some prophecies are "conditional" correct?

In other words...
For a prophecy to be conditional, that prophecy must be contingent upon future "conditions" being met or not met. If the future is settled for God there could be no such thing as contingencies in the future.

I'm not sure how to answer. What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you. <thinking> I guess you are right. Since the future would be settled (only in God's perspective), than the future would not seem conditional to God, but only to us.

What is this? 4 posts in one day. More active than I ever thought this one on one would get.