One on One: Mr. 5020 & Knight (II)

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't understand you anymore. Sleep deprivation, perhaps. God knew that Nineveh would repent if God allowed Jonah to prophecy possible destruction.
Good idea....

You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

You have already agreed that God uses prophecy to INFLUENCE human choices.

Therefore God's prophecy to Nineveh was given to INFLUENCE their choices and hopefully bring to pass repentance.

If God had ALREADY seen Nineveh's repentance no prophecy would be needed to INFLUENCE human choices because all choices had already been settled in advance. Actually.... the very fact that you acknowledge that prophecy is used to INFLUENCE human choices contradicts your assertion that God already knows the future exhaustively.

OK, I think it's pretty obvious that you are willing to accept the contradiction in your theology regarding this issue so lets move on.

QUESTION: If God has exhaustive knowledge of the future in every detail could there ever be a time that God would experiance an event that He wasn't expecting to happen?

 

[Mr. 5020]

I'll respond tomorrow.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'll respond tomorrow.

:thumb:

 

[Mr. 5020]

I'm sorry. Once again, my free time has become scarce. I'll respond as soon as possible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm sorry. Once again, my free time has become scarce. I'll respond as soon as possible.

No worries.

 

[Mr. 5020]

OK, I think it's pretty obvious that you are willing to accept the contradiction in your theology regarding this issue so lets move on.

I don't see any contradiction.

QUESTION: If God has exhaustive knowledge of the future in every detail could there ever be a time that God would experiance an event that He wasn't expecting to happen?

This is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no.

Could you humor me and explain why the answer must be "no"?

 

[Mr. 5020]

First, nice avatar. :thumb:

Could you humor me and explain why the answer must be "no"?

Yes: because your question was conditional. You asked...

QUESTION: If God has exhaustive knowledge of the future in every detail could there ever be a time that God would experiance an event that He wasn't expecting to happen?

So, if God has exhaustive knowledge of the future in every detail, then no, He could not be surprised.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

if God has exhaustive knowledge of the future in every detail, then no, He could not be surprised.

Why not?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Why not?

I'm hoping that this is setting up some great point or something...

The reason is because, in your question, the condition was that God already knows every detail of the future. If He meets that condition, it would be impossible for him to be surprised.

Not to mention, serving a God that frequently says, "Woah! Didn't see that one coming!" is not very appealing.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The reason is because, in your question, the condition was that God already knows every detail of the future. If He meets that condition, it would be impossible for him to be surprised.

Isn't the entire premise of this thread based on the fact that you believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Isn't the entire premise of this thread based on the fact that you believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

To be exact, in the opening post, I said...

Basically, I'm talking to Knight about Open Theism. I'm not sold on the open view or the closed view.

I have carried this thread, however, with the premise that I believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. So, the answer to your question is yes.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To be exact, in the opening post, I said...

Good point. I forgot you stated you were still on the fence.

I have carried this thread, however, with the premise that I believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. So, the answer to your question is yes.

OK, so assuming that God has exhaustive foreknowledge why would it be impossible for Him to experience an event that He wasn't expecting to happen?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Good point. I forgot you stated you were still on the fence.

OK, so assuming that God has exhaustive foreknowledge why would it be impossible for Him to experience an event that He wasn't expecting to happen?

The question is illogical.

For example...
If I know exactly what will happen tonight when the Colts play the Steelers (and I do, Colts win), can anything that happens during that game catch me by surprise? Of course not. Because I already know what will happen.

I'm still hoping this is leading to some great point...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The question is illogical.

For example...
If I know exactly what will happen tonight when the Colts play the Steelers (and I do, Colts win), can anything that happens during that game catch me by surprise? Of course not. Because I already know what will happen.

That's right, because if you have already seen a movie and know it scene by scene perfectly you would be considered irrational if you were ever expecting a different ending to that movie correct?

Now.... do you believe that God is rational?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Now.... do you believe that God is rational?

Yes.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes.

OK...

So if we agree that God is rational and we also agree that it would be irrational for God to expect an outcome that He knew wasn't going to happen then why would God describe Himself in the Bible as expecting outcomes that were different than the outcomes that actually came to pass?

Isn't that proof that God doesn't know the future exhaustively?

 

[Mr. 5020]

OK...

So if we agree that God is rational and we also agree that it would be irrational for God to expect an outcome that He knew wasn't going to happen then why would God describe Himself in the Bible as expecting outcomes that were different than the outcomes that actually came to pass?

Which Bible passages would you be referring to?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Which Bible passages would you be referring to?

There are several.... however, to remain focused I will choose but one.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

God expected Israel to produce "good grapes" but instead Israel produced "wild grapes".

There are two possible conclusions to be made from this....

A. God has exhaustive foreknowledge yet God is irrational and expects things that He knows will not come to pass.

B. God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

Which do you choose, A or B?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

bump