Original Sin, and its Essence

Nick M

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Only sinners die.
Innocents do not die as innocents do not have the necessary mens rea to be guilty for sin and under its sway.
Actually no.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
 

JudgeRightly

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My article aimed to spark discussion about a compelling pattern: the concept of original sin appears across diverse cultures, from ancient Greece and Mesopotamia to Aboriginal Australia. This widespread theme suggests a universal human recognition of a primordial rupture between divine and human realms—one that explains our current state of suffering and mortality. The persistence of this narrative across civilizations points to a fundamental truth about human nature: our deep-seated sense of moral imperfection and yearning for redemption.


See Rule 8, and also "Other things to avoid..."
 

Ps82

Well-known member
Actually no.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
I think you made a great point.

I will add: Yes, Jesus through his death and resurrection has over come sin and death. He now provides the WAY of our following him. So one day I asked: If Jesus has overcome sin and death then why are we human's still suffering? He gave me an answer.

He said, "I waited on you!"
"What???," I said.
Then he opened scripture for me. There is a reason we still suffer. A reason we still experience death. A reason we still commit sins.

When God created us he had a purpose. He wanted to grow a family that would love and follow him of our own free will. He had a plan called salvation all ready for our sake if we failed.
  • Birth was made a process to occur over time
  • Death was a process to occur over time
Because both were made a process this allowed for male and female to fulfill God's first command for mankind. Produce and multiply a family.

Yes, Jesus has overcome sin and death by his miracle on the cross and he has given us a gift of his Holy Spirit. Him in us followers is the way we follow him into an eternal kingdom. But the processes still go on ... in fact we are told this:

I Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

We still suffer from the original sin of our parents, Adam/Woman, because God has waited on us to be born. If he had ended birthing and dying and brought in the kingdom, when Jesus arose from the dead, then you and I would have never been born having a chance to partake of his perfect eternal kingdom.

In this world we will have troubles ... and still suffer from the consequences of the original sin ... actually we suffer due to the curse upon the ground which was done by God FOR OUR SAKE. Through that curse and our waiting we will one day shed this earthly body and begiven a new one where we as individuals will live in a perfect world in a relationship with our Lord and Father.

I Corinthians 15:54-55 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.!

Read I Tim. 6:14-16 to see who introduces the saints to the LORD Father!!! What an exciting day that will be.
 

Nick M

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A reason we still experience death. A reason we still commit sins.
Study the scripture. I am going to quote Paul again from the same letter. The summary is this body is dead because of sin. It will go to the grave. The law proves the body is in sin. But we are not. Our spirit is alive, but the body is dead. Then other letters.

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


And to the church in Ephesus, or whatever it is called;

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

And the purchased possession, which we cannot trace out from the Hebrew prophets (they never stated anyone will die and go to heave)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Note, we go to the clouds with a transformed body. No longer dead from sin.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Again, a mystery because it is not in prophecy. But it is similar to the prophet Ezekiel who said Israel will be raised up with new bodies. So how is it a mystery? Because Israel will be resurrected and placed in their land. They also will be born from above. But that is a partial tangent. This body is dead and corrupted. It will go to the grave, then he will transform it and take us with him before he purges Israel.
 

Halster

New member
Original Sin never really made sense to me as a literal punishment passed down to everyone. It feels more like a way to explain why humans are flawed and tend to mess up. I think the idea developed over time, especially with Augustine’s influence, and the Catholic Church kind of ran with it. I don't think it was just made up out of nowhere, but it definitely evolved with theology. Whether you take it as symbolic or historical probably depends on how you read the Bible overall.
 

Nick M

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Original Sin never really made sense to me as a literal punishment passed down to everyone.
Why do you ignore this?

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

I never read anything from Augustine or anything like it. This is what the Bible says.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us does not make an innocent person (innocent of any choice to sin) to become a sinner any more than having Christ's righteousness imputed to us makes us fully righteous with no need for any sanctification!

The only people born into Adam to have his guilt imputed to them were already sinners by their own free will decision to sin against GOD when they were sown, not created, by conception into mankind, Matt 13:36-39. His guilt and death imputed to them do not create them or make them to be sinners (GOD cannot create evil!) but show them to be already sinners and bringing all elect sinners into one judgement, it allows Christ to die but once for all elect sinners.

Imputation of guilt or righteousness changes only how GOD sees and treat us, imputation does not change our condition from innocent to evil nor evil to innocent or fully sanctified...
 

Nick M

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Having Adam's guilt imputed to us does not make an innocent person (innocent of any choice to sin) to become a sinner any more than having Christ's righteousness imputed to us makes us fully righteous with no need for any sanctification!
Here we go again.

10 As it is written:

There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”


I can state innocent and righteous are not the same. Nevertheless...

2 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
 

Ps82

Well-known member
Study the scripture. I am going to quote Paul again from the same letter. The summary is this body is dead because of sin. It will go to the grave. The law proves the body is in sin. But we are not. Our spirit is alive, but the body is dead. Then other letters.
I agree. However, when one implies: "But we are not [in sin]. Our spirit is alive ..." That includes a lot of humanity. The we actually only refers to followers of Christ. We are alive because of Christ in US. He has the measure of life [Holy Spirit] to dwell in us giving us assurance that our individual spiritual entity still will live into his eternal kingdom. That is what he implied to the Woman at the well. He had water [spiritual life] to give her from which she would never thirst again. People thirst for natural water to stay alive in this world ... but he had "special water" to give her from which she would not struggle to live eternally.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
I agree ... The spirit in us belonging to Christ is what should guide the believer to become slaves of righteousness. Yet, we still have that conduit of flesh. Just as Christ was tempted in all ways but remained sinless we are asked to follow his example and make him Lord over our lives.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I agree. Believers regret they do not live a sinless life and their will is not to do the things pertaining to sin... but we are still dwelling in this realm in a cursed body and have not yet been perfected. I pray that one day we will fee the peace of having a will to do good and are able to accomplish it and be happy with it. As for now I know I am weak but he is strong. I trust in him for power, wisdom, mercy and the assurance which Christ affords me. When I am often in doubt due to my weaknesses I remind myself I am saved by faith in him.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Yes, it is all about Christ in me and not myself. I know that is something super-natural to take in but I believe in the super-natural. There is a God ... he is able to share measure of himself unto things/people/angels he has created. Things of himself which sustain them and holds them as individuals unto eternity with him. It is the Gift of Christ which made the way for his followers to partake of such blessings.

And to the church in Ephesus, or whatever it is called;

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Jesus, who was the Word of God and was God in flesh, though not caring to undergo the torture of his death was willing to follow through because of the joy he knew lay ahead of him some day. Things have been overcome and established but not yet manifested, but we have the guarantee of our inheritance through Christ. He willingly kept the covenant of salvation with humanity and praise the Lord we will be made new.

And the purchased possession, which we cannot trace out from the Hebrew prophets (they never stated anyone will die and go to heave)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Hallelujah

Note, we go to the clouds with a transformed body. No longer dead from sin.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

I so agree. I do wonder: Will I be part of those never sleep [die and lie with my ancestors] and is changed in the twinkling of an eye or part of those who will be martyred and then raised. I can't determine that but must be prepared with the same hope Christ had when he anticipated the cross and his resurrection to glory and a kingdom with those who loved him. ???

Again, a mystery because it is not in prophecy. But it is similar to the prophet Ezekiel who said Israel will be raised up with new bodies. So how is it a mystery? Because Israel will be resurrected and placed in their land. They also will be born from above. But that is a partial tangent. This body is dead and corrupted. It will go to the grave, then he will transform it and take us with him before he purges Israel.
I do not believe the Lord is finished with his people Israel. I believe they have a destiny with the LORD whether it be a remnant of all. That is God's business. It is only a mystery because we haven't been told. Yes, out body is dead when we are born ... but lives for now because it is God's will that multiplying and reproducing continues. He has waited on you and me ... and still waits on his children to be born and love him. God help humanity for God has been so merciful to us among His created beings.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Here we go again.

10 As it is written:

There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
I have never denied this!

I just deny that our sinfulness and lack of righteousness are forced upon us without any decision to sin by our being forced to be conceived in A SINFUL ADAM by GOD's will! Completely impossible or GOD is not holy...
 

Nick M

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That includes a lot of humanity.
No, it doesn't.
The we actually only refers to followers of Christ. We are alive because of Christ in US.
See, you knew.
That is what he implied to the Woman at the well.
That isn't all he said to her. And the other things are equally important.
I hope so. Paul received this scripture directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus, who was the Word of God and was God in flesh,
Logos doesn't mean word. But that is a different topic
I know that is something super-natural to take in but I believe in the super-natural.
You better. Because the alternative is ridiculous. As Ray Comfort says in his street interviews, I don't believe in the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything. To do so is retarded with a capital R. Or more correctly as God calls them in scripture, fools.
 

Ps82

Well-known member
No, it doesn't.

See, you knew.

That isn't all he said to her. And the other things are equally important.

I hope so. Paul received this scripture directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Logos doesn't mean word. But that is a different topic

You better. Because the alternative is ridiculous. As Ray Comfort says in his street interviews, I don't believe in the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything. To do so is retarded with a capital R. Or more correctly as God calls them in scripture, fools.
Guess I've always been told Logos meant God's word. A lot of people believe this refers to the written word ... I happen to take it to mean the power by which God spoke things in to existence. Moses first referred to it as the voice of God ... but then he went further and said that the voice of God was heard walking in the Garden and Adam and his Woman hid from the presence of the LORD God. Within all that info there is a lot to discuss.

I like Ray Comfort... and I do not believe nothing can bring forth all created things. I also don't believe like some people that God created things 'out of nothing'. I think this way: God brought forth things that weren't. There is no pile of nothing inside of God from which he could build things. There also are no empty spots called nothing. To my thinking God is omni-present. He is all and in all - according to measures. Yet, he did establish rules of function, set boundaries, and share measures of his powers, his life, his intellect, etc. in order to establish beings and things within himself. Things, seen and unseen are in him but they be separated from each other and differing according to his laws. He even established multiple realms which he called heavens. Angels live in a realm and people in another The LORD God in another ... yet there are doors / portals which God can open or shut where there may be contact according to His will.
 

Nick M

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Guess I've always been told Logos meant God's word.
Logic and reason.

The Christian culture has changed many things. Possibly because they had good intentions, but I don't know. Like Paul being the first saved into the Body of Christ. Yet modern English translators say worst and chief saved into the Body, which makes no sense.
 

Ps82

Well-known member
Logic and reason.

The Christian culture has changed many things. Possibly because they had good intentions, but I don't know. Like Paul being the first saved into the Body of Christ. Yet modern English translators say worst and chief saved into the Body, which makes no sense.
Wouldn't logic and reason be very similar to the definition of WISDOM? God's wisdom is in his WORD. When the Father spoke the words of the one spiritual God, he spoke WISDOM. When Lord Jesus spoke only the words he heard from the Father ... he spoke WISDOM.

The WORD of God is logic and reason and WISDOM. Jesus Christ came as the WORD of God ... who was with God in the beginning and was God. All things were created by God's WORD.

The WORD of God is alive. I say The WORD is alive because all of God's character and essence is alive. God is life. Jesus the Christ was alive in the way we humans are alive ... but he also was the walking talking living WORD of the ONE God.

He was other things as well. Each important to knowing exactly who the Messiah was when he came in human form. Example: He was the LIGHT.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Original Sin never really made sense to me as a literal punishment passed down to everyone.
I think I can help here. What was passed on was not sin, but death. And it is morally right for death promised to Adam before he conceived any offspring to be under the same sentence. If Adam was considered dead by God, because he was going to die, then any children he has are as good as dead. It's not a moral sentence, it's a natural consequence.
It feels more like a way to explain why humans are flawed and tend to mess up. I think the idea developed over time, especially with Augustine’s influence, and the Catholic Church kind of ran with it. I don't think it was just made up out of nowhere, but it definitely evolved with theology. Whether you take it as symbolic or historical probably depends on how you read the Bible overall.
It does explain why humans are messed up: if you are faced with unavoidable death, you might as well "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." I.e., if we are going to die, get all you can in this life before you go. That leads to more sin, in fact, bondage to sin.
Hebrews 2:15 KJV — And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Christmas sets us free from that bondage, giving us "new life", in which we no longer are under bondage to sin--we can perform God's righteousness in the hope of the resurrection, where the old man will be completely done away with.
 

Clete

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Original Sin never really made sense to me as a literal punishment passed down to everyone.
That's a VERY good sign! It never made sense to you because it does not make sense - period. It means that your innate sense of justice is still intact, as is your ability to think clearly.

It feels more like a way to explain why humans are flawed and tend to mess up. I think the idea developed over time, especially with Augustine’s influence, and the Catholic Church kind of ran with it. I don't think it was just made up out of nowhere, but it definitely evolved with theology. Whether you take it as symbolic or historical probably depends on how you read the Bible overall.
Augustine is almost single-handedly responsible for the doctrine of original sin as we know it, but instead of coming at it from that direction, it seems more impactful to debunk the notion on the basis of justice. Is God just or isn't He? If He is then original sin is foolishness to the point of abject stupidity. If God is unjust then who cares to even bother discussing it?

Some teach that Adam’s one act imposed condemnation on all his descendants, yet Scripture insists each person bears responsibility only for their own sin. Ezekiel 18 (i.e. the entire chapter) makes this plain, and Paul clarifies in Romans 5 that “death spread to all men because all sinned,” not because we were born guilty as a consequence of Adam’s choice but because each of us walked through the door he opened and succumbed to our own sin.

God’s justice is rooted in His nature as Reason, Love and Righteousness woven together in perfect harmony. His judgment on sin is not arbitrary punishment but the restoration of the moral order He designed. When Christ died, He satisfied justice; when He rose, He broke the power of sin and death. Our union with Him in His death and resurrection is not mere theological poetry but the very means by which the corruption inherited from Adam is dismantled. Trusting Christ baptizes us into His death and raises us to new life, crucifying the old self which was enslaved to sin so that our new identity is “alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

Paul’s cry in Romans 7 captures the agony of every believer striving to live rightly in the flesh. He longs to do good yet finds himself doing evil, identifying sin as dwelling within him while refusing to excuse himself. That honest confession, “Who will deliver me from this body of death?” leads him to the only answer: “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Victory is found not in moral willpower but in the One who has already won!

The battlefield is the mind. With our minds we choose to serve the law of God even as our flesh wars against us. Transformation comes through renewing our minds so we discern God’s will; no amount of rule-keeping changes our hearts. Filling our thoughts with truth, meditating on what is noble and pure, and taking every thought captive to Christ allows the Spirit to reprogram our desires and empower us to live righteously.

Romans 8 unveils the solution: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the law of sin and death. The indwelling Spirit fulfills the righteous requirement of the law by producing the fruit of love, joy and peace. Our struggle does not vanish overnight, yet sanctification is the lifelong process of yielding to the Spirit’s guidance, growing in faith, and putting to death the deeds of the body by His power. Once again, this is a battle fought and won in the mind...

Romans 6:11 RECKON yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.​
""Is it, Reckon yourself to be weak in reference to sin? No, it is lower than that. Is it, Reckon yourself to be dying? No, lower still. ‘Reckon yourself to be dead—(Rom. 6:11)—indeed unto sin.’ Some believe they are very weak. But what does that imply? That they have some strength. But when a man is dead he has no strength. We must act on the fact that we are dead in reference to sin. We shall not then speak of difficulty as to resisting temptation in reference to ourselves. We shall take the lowest place, and say it is impossible. But we shall know that what is impossible with self is possible with God. We shall take our place on the resurrection side of the cross, and in so doing we leave behind the old self-life for the new Christ-life. To live in Him who is our Life, is to be in the power of God." - Even Hopkins​

This process is a partnership. Philippians 2 explains that we “work out” our salvation with fear and trembling because God works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. Our part is to cooperate with the Spirit by choosing to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind; His part is to pour His love into us, strengthen our inner being, and produce Christ’s life within us. As we concentrate on loving Him, the barriers of our fleshly self are gradually dismantled and we bear fruit no amount of self-effort could ever produce.

Galatians 2:20 summarizes it: it is no longer I who live but Christ living in me. That indwelling life is the source of victory over sin. Though our bodies remain subject to death, our spirits are alive in Christ; the tendency to sin remains a real temptation but no longer has the final say. Each time we set our minds on heavenly things instead of earthly impulses, we choose life and peace.

Original sin is not about the imputation of guilt but the reality of a corrupted nature inclined toward death. God’s justice demands that corruption be addressed; Christ’s death and resurrection provide the perfectly rational solution. We are neither robots compelled to sin nor sinners punished for another’s actions; we are free moral agents who have experienced the consequences of our own sin, have been justified by Christ’s obedience, and live by the power of His indwelling Spirit.

This is the biblical and rational foundation for a free, responsible and victorious Christian life. It upholds God’s justice, honors our moral agency, and rests wholly on the grace that reconciles us and empowers us to walk in newness of life.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
I think I can help here. What was passed on was not sin, but death. And it is morally right for death promised to Adam before he conceived any offspring to be under the same sentence.
I do agree....but:
how is it morally right to condemn those innocent of sin to receive the wages for sin, ie, death, BEFORE they are created and before they ever chose to be sinful in HIS sight?

My suggested answer is that 1. only those who are sinners already are sown into Adam's death so 2. He need only die once for all elect sinners and not over and over for each and everyone of us.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I do agree....but:
how is it morally right to condemn those innocent of sin to receive the wages for sin, ie, death, BEFORE they are created and before they ever chose to be sinful in HIS sight?
How is it possible not to?
My suggested answer is that 1. only those who are sinners already are sown into Adam's death so 2. He need only die once for all elect sinners and not over and over for each and everyone of us.
Adam was not introduced into his body. Adam was made inanimate, breathed unto by the breath of God, THEN he became a living being.

God intended to make a race of beings from the first man that He could have relationship with, but that they had the ability to sin could foil His plans. So He made a way of escape from the sin even before He made the man.
 
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