ECT ST. AUGUSTINE ON THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST

[Crucible]

:darwinsm:... You've been laughably deluded by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect(s). It is a simple and straightforward documented fact that St. Augustine was fully Catholic in every sense of the term, a bishop and scholar who believed, taught, and passionately defended the following distinctively Catholic doctrines, among others:

• baptismal regeneration
• Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist
• the divine authority of Tradition, equal w/ Scripture as Divine Revelation (God's word)*
• infant baptism
• the primacy and authority of the papacy
• the role of good works in salvation**
• papal and apostolic succession
• the 73-book biblical canon
• the intermediate state of purgatory
• the invocation of the intercession of past Saints (Communion of Saints)
• the religious use of sacred images and objects in worship and devotion
• verbal confession of sins to a priest for absolution
• the Mass as a genuine sacrifice

So much for your sect's cockeyed imaginary take on St. Augustine.

__________
*Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola scriptura.
** Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola fide.

Augustine was a 4th century priest, long before half the claims the Catholic Church would invent or make into ridiculous platitudes. You all are the one's with a 'cockeyed imaginary take' on Augustine- Luther and Calvin believed it, having based many of their doctrines on Augustinian theology, and they knocked down your temples with it.

What you fail to understand is that the RCC's reason for dismissing predestinarian belief is because it forsakes a lot of beliefs that they hold to- so they took away the very foundation Augustine built his beliefs on.
It makes no sense- and that is because Catholicism is a web of deceit.

 

[Sonnet]

Yes, no doubt your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect has told you this.

I'm not linked with any such as you suggest.

However, the biblical reality is that, while Paul specifically condemns the "works of the law" (i.e., the Mosaic Law) with respect to salvation, he also insists on the necessary role of "good works" (acts of mercy and obedience) in salvation (Rom. 2:6-11; 1 Cor. 9:23-27; 15:10; Gal. 5:6-7; Phil. 2:12-13; Heb. 5:9). Note, however, that I'm talking about ultimate salvation, not initial justification.

If you saying that no good works are involved in the initial justification then I agree with you.

 

[Cruciform]

Augustine was a 4th century priest, long before half the claims the Catholic Church would invent or make into ridiculous platitudes. You all are the one's with a 'cockeyed imaginary take' on Augustine- Luther and Calvin believed it, having based many of their doctrines on Augustinian theology, and they knocked down your temples with it

This is just more of your distorted sectarian nonsense about Augustine that has already been decisively refuted in Post #12 above. Sorry for your confusion, but your favored man-made sect has simply misled you. Again.

 

[Sonnet]

How exactly do you imagine this to be the case?

If genuine believers exists outside of Catholicism then it has no monopoly - the true church becomes all those who are true believers.

 

[Cruciform]

I'm not linked with any such as you suggest.

Everyone learns his particular ideas and beliefs from some human source or sources, from some religious tradition, and you are no exception. If you're not Catholic, then you have almost certainly derived your own beliefs from one or more of the myriad non-Catholic (Protestant) denominations and sects in existence today. In short, everyone his his particular doctrinal tradition(s), Protestants as well as Catholics.

If you saying that no good works are involved in the initial justification then I agree with you.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Initial justification is wholly the work of God, apart from human works of any sort.

 

[Crucible]

This is just more of your distorted sectarian nonsense about Augustine

Are you predestinarian in your theology?

A simple yay or nay will do.

 

[Cruciform]

If genuine believers exists outside of Catholicism then it has no monopoly - the true church becomes all those who are true believers.

Incorrect. Just because there exist Christians apart from formal membership in Christ's one historic Catholic Church does not mean that they are collectively "the church." Christ's Church is a specifically defined and structured entity founded by Jesus Christ and built by his apostles and bishops over the course of the past two millennia. It is identifiable by its ordained leadership---bishops in communion with the Pope (Bishop of Rome)---by its sacraments, and by its liturgy (worship). Hence, one may be in some sense a "Christian" without being joined to Christ's one historic "Church."

 

[Sonnet]

Everyone learns his particular ideas and beliefs from some human source or sources, from some religious tradition, and you are no exception. If you're not Catholic, then you have almost certainly derived your own beliefs from one or more of the myriad non-Catholic (Protestant) denominations and sects in existence today. In short, everyone his his particular doctrinal tradition(s), Protestants as well as Catholics.

Ok.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Initial justification is wholly the work of God, apart from human works of any sort.

And the faith is synergistic of course.

 

[Cruciform]

Are you predestinarian in your theology?

All Christians hold to some form of predestination, since it is mentioned in Scripture. But no, Catholics do not hold to a Calvinistic concept of the term.

 

[Cruciform]

And the faith is synergistic of course.

Yes, though not apart from the enabling grace of God.

 

[Sonnet]

Incorrect. Just because there exist Christians apart from formal membership in Christ's one historic Catholic Church does not mean that they are collectively "the church." Christ's Church is a specifically defined and structured entity founded by Jesus Christ and built by his apostles and bishops over the course of the past two millennia. It is identifiable by its ordained leadership---bishops in communion with the Pope (Bishop of Rome)---by its sacraments, and by its liturgy (worship). Hence, one may be in some sense a "Christian" without being joined to Christ's one historic "Church."

Nothing whatsoever here that proves your assertion. You'd need to be specific.

 

[patrick jane]

catholics made their OWN Bible. Not smart

Galatians 1:7-8 KJV -

 

[Sonnet]

Yes, though not apart from the enabling grace of God.

Acts 7:51.

 

[Crucible]

Catholics do not hold to a Calvinistic concept of the term.[/FONT]

Then you do not actually hold to Augustinian belief.
Augustine affirmed two of the three points of predestination, which is exactly what Calvinism holds to. Reformed theology is the restoration of what the Catholic Church twisted and which Arminians blamed Augustine's past Stoicism on.

 

[Sonnet]

Incorrect. Just because there exist Christians apart from formal membership in Christ's one historic Catholic Church does not mean that they are collectively "the church." Christ's Church is a specifically defined and structured entity founded by Jesus Christ and built by his apostles and bishops over the course of the past two millennia. It is identifiable by its ordained leadership---bishops in communion with the Pope (Bishop of Rome)---by its sacraments, and by its liturgy (worship). Hence, one may be in some sense a "Christian" without being joined to Christ's one historic "Church."

Since you accept there are true believers outside Catholicism then how can it be said that Catholicism is necessary?

 

[Cruciform]

Nothing whatsoever here that proves your assertion. You'd need to be specific.

What is it, exactly, that you're looking for?

 

[Cruciform]

catholics made their OWN Bible.

Now post your proof for this mere unsubstantiated assertion.

 

[Sonnet]

Then you do not actually hold to Augustinian belief.
Augustine affirmed two of the three points of predestination, which is exactly what Calvinism holds to. Reformed theology is the restoration of what the Catholic Church twisted and which Arminians blamed Augustine's past Stoicism on.

Since the Bible affirms that Christ died for all men and no scriptures exist that explicitly support limited atonement then we can dispense with Calvinism right from the off.

 

[Cruciform]

Acts 7:51.

Amen!

 

[Cruciform]

Then you do not actually hold to Augustinian belief.

Sure I do. Augustine subsequently renounced and abandoned his early speculations about predestinationism, promoting instead his more mature doctrinal views, endorsed to this day by the Catholic Church. Try again?