The Banned Debate: Are Sexually Active Transgendered Persons Rapists?

[Traditio]

I call this "the banned debate" because this actually did get me banned on another forum.

Are sexually active transgendered persons rapists?

Let us take a man. He feels like he's a woman. He wants to look like a woman. So, he gets surgery to make him look like a woman. He now appears to have female, not male, sexual organs. Let us even grant that he believes that he is a woman.

He then proceeds to have sexual intercourse with another man, failing to indicate to that man that he, in fact, was born a man.

Has he committed an act of rape?

In fact, I'm inclined to think that he has:

1. He has failed to gain the informed consent of his sexual partner. In fact, his refusal to bring up this very important point, which most men would find problematic, has thereby denied his sexual partner a right to say "no" in an informed way.

2. Anyone who disagrees with me, in effect, must argue that the informed consent of his sexual partner doesn't matter, i.e., that it's the feelings, wants, desires, etc. of the transgendered person which matter, not the choice, autonomy, etc. of his sexual partner.

Which is precisely the rapist's mentality and mindset. In order to disagree with me, you must argue like a rapist would argue.

Social liberals positively baffle me on this point.

They are constantly prattling on about consent. When it comes to abortion, when it comes to rape, when it comes to medicine, etc. All of a sudden, though, they stop caring about informed consent when it comes to transgendered persons who wish to commit sexual acts?

 

[ok doser]

are they married?

if they're not married, they shouldn't be having sex :nono:

 

[Granite]

I call this "the banned debate" because this actually did get me banned on another forum.

We should have it so good.

Are sexually active transgendered persons rapists?

I'd say you've gotten worse over the years but let's stick with something less obvious, like the sun's awakening every morning in the east.

Let us take a man. He feels like he's a woman.

And let's take you: A twelve-year-old's mentality stuck in a grown up's body.

Since you can't take the issue of transgendered individuals seriously, and don't appear to really want to, the rest of this puerile little hypothetical of yours is next to worthless.

Has he committed an act of rape?

Has she, you mean. And no, you don't get to judge the definition of an adult's identity. They do.

1. He has failed to gain the informed consent of his sexual partner.

So if someone found their partner was biracial and had a freakout would you consider that justified? What kind of information do you think needs to be disclosed prior to partnering up? And what kind of philistine sits around thinking up this kind of nonsense? (Answer: Virgins and shut ins.)

In fact, his refusal to bring up this very important point, which most men would find problematic, has thereby denied his sexual partner a right to say "no" in an informed way.

See above. Let's just disclose blood type, Social, mother's maiden, and pin numbers too, while we're at it. And if I see a Rush poster on their wall in the morning, game over.

 

[patrick jane]

I call this "the banned debate" because this actually did get me banned on another forum.

Are sexually active transgendered persons rapists?

Let us take a man. He feels like he's a woman. He wants to look like a woman. So, he gets surgery to make him look like a woman. He now appears to have female, not male, sexual organs. Let us even grant that he believes that he is a woman.

He then proceeds to have sexual intercourse with another man, failing to indicate to that man that he, in fact, was born a man.

Has he committed an act of rape?

In fact, I'm inclined to think that he has:

1. He has failed to gain the informed consent of his sexual partner. In fact, his refusal to bring up this very important point, which most men would find problematic, has thereby denied his sexual partner a right to say "no" in an informed way.

2. Anyone who disagrees with me, in effect, must argue that the informed consent of his sexual partner doesn't matter, i.e., that it's the feelings, wants, desires, etc. of the transgendered person which matter, not the choice, autonomy, etc. of his sexual partner.

Which is precisely the rapist's mentality and mindset. In order to disagree with me, you must argue like a rapist would argue.

Social liberals positively baffle me on this point.

They are constantly prattling on about consent. When it comes to abortion, when it comes to rape, when it comes to medicine, etc. All of a sudden, though, they stop caring about informed consent when it comes to transgendered persons who wish to commit sexual acts?

I don't know what it would look like down there if a man became a woman, but at some point before intercourse I think the other person can tell whether something is off (no pun intended).

What then, should we imprison trans genders for engaging in sex acts ?
You know what happens in prison -

View attachment 20535

 

[Traditio]

Has she, you mean. And no, you don't get to judge the definition of an adult's identity. They do.

This is precisely what I am calling the rapist's mindset. You are arguing exactly like a rapist.

"My beliefs, opinions, desires, etc. matters, not yours."

False. When it comes to rape, the transgendered person's opinions, beliefs, etc. don't matter. His sexual partner's does.

So if someone found their partner was biracial and had a freakout would you consider that justified? What kind of information do you think needs to be disclosed prior to partnering up? And what kind of philistine sits around thinking up this kind of nonsense? (Answer: Virgins and shut ins.)

This is determined culturally. Culturally speaking, there is no widespread stigma against dating or having sexual intercourse with a biracial person. There is massive widespread stigma against having sex with a transgendered person. In fact, in the very words that received moderator discipline on another forum: "It's gay, revolting and disgusting," and pretty much most men think so.

 

[Traditio]

What then, should we imprison trans genders for engaging in sex acts ?

Absolutely. Rapists absolutely should be imprisoned for rape.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Granite]

This is precisely what I am calling the rapist's mindset. You are arguing exactly like a rapist.

Oh get over yourself, manchild.

What's your point here, exactly? Oh, wait: Trans people are bad. Congrats, you're daft, predictable, and unoriginal.

This brief experiment in reading your posts again is wrapped up. I think your bigotry and ignorance is safe on TOL, so don't flatter yourself you'll be shown the door for bashing. What kind of place do you think this is?

 

[Traditio]

are they married?

if they're not married, they shouldn't be having sex :nono:

This is an excellent point and I fully admit it. However, consider the following:

Let us suppose that A manages to marry B, B being a transgendered person who thinks that he is a woman.

They "consummate" their so-called "marriage." A has no clue that B is actually a man.

Rape? I think so.

And let's go to the very first date. A thinks that B is a woman, when, in fact, B is a man.

He buys him dinner because he thinks that he is a woman.

I think that's theft by fraud. B has, in effect, stolen from A.

 

[Traditio]

What's your point here, exactly? Oh, wait: Trans people are bad. Congrats, you're daft, predictable, and unoriginal.

I don't think that transgendered persons are bad. I make no such judgment either way. I quote Pope Francis: "Who am I to judge?"

I do think that transgendered persons who fail to disclose their actual biological genders are commiting acts of rape and fraud, however.

What's your argument against it?

 

[ok doser]

Absolutely. Rapists absolutely should be imprisoned for rape. executed swiftly and painfully

:thumb:

 

[ok doser]

I quote Pope Francis: "Who am I to judge?"

and yet he judged the sicilian mafia and excommunicated them :think:

 

[Traditio]

:thumb:

I disagree with you in fact, but I can understand and appreciate the idea.

Bodily integrity is a good equivalent to life. Rape offends against it. I can see how it could merit death.

 

[jamie]

I don't think that transgendered persons are bad. I make no such judgment either way. I quote Pope Francis: "Who am I to judge?"

I do think that transgendered persons who fail to disclose their actual biological genders are commiting acts of rape and fraud, however.

What's your argument against it?

Someone said we shouldn't judge by outward appearance.

 

[Traditio]

Someone said we shouldn't judge by outward appearance.

If A looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, speaks like a woman, acts like a woman, etc., I have a reasonable expectation that A is a woman.

If A is not a woman, then the burden is on him to correct my view in any socially significant and relevant context.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Let us take a man. He feels like he's a woman. He wants to look like a woman. So, he gets surgery to make him look like a woman. He now appears to have female, not male, sexual organs. Let us even grant that he believes that he is a woman.

He then proceeds to have sexual intercourse with another man, failing to indicate to that man that he, in fact, was born a man.

Has he committed an act of rape?

_____
Sherry called the police department and reported that she had
been raped.
The officer who answered the phone, asked, "When did this happen?"
She replied, "Last week."
The police then asked, "Why did you wait until now to report it?"
"Well," she said. "I didn't know that I was raped until the
check bounced."
_____​

Will the "John" in this story be prosecuted for rape?
If not, why not?

Spoiler

Because the sexual act itself was still consensual, even if fraud was involved.

 

[jamie]

If A looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, speaks like a woman, acts like a woman, etc., I have a reasonable expectation that A is a woman.

If A is not a male then she is a female. A person's sex is determined physically.

 

[This Charming Manc]

Interestingly in the UK a girl was found guilty of sexual assault because the girl she had relations with consented thinking she was a man.

A very strange story.

So if someone found their partner was biracial and had a freakout would you consider that justified? What kind of information do you think needs to be disclosed prior to partnering up? And what kind of philistine sits around thinking up this kind of nonsense? (Answer: Virgins and shut ins.)

See above. Let's just disclose blood type, Social, mother's maiden, and pin numbers too, while we're at it. And if I see a Rush poster on their wall in the morning, game over.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If A is not a male then she is a female. A person's sex is determined physically.

Yes, a person's gender is determined by that person's chromosomes.
No amount of surgery or drug use can change that.

 

[annabenedetti]

I call this "the banned debate" because this actually did get me banned on another forum.

Are sexually active transgendered persons rapists?

Are most of your posts at the other forum about the sex lives of other people?

 

[ok doser]

Interestingly in the UK a girl was found guilty of sexual assault because the girl she had relations with consented thinking she was a man.

A very strange story.

iirc, most of their interactions, at least at first, were virtual

and they knew each other irl