The Bundy Bunch Trial Begins

northwye

New member
The mainstream media has used the same talking points in trying to discredit the Bundy people and other Western ranchers in conflict with the BLM that the Southern Poverty Law Center has used.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is a Leftist organization, which receives money from some of the members of the financial and corporate elite. And since the sixties the Left has been Marxist. There was another kind of Left earlier out of which the Hippies evolved, along with the ideology of the Drug Movement under Tim Leary et al. This was the Art Bohemian movement, which was anti-Christian but not Marxist. Few Church Christians know what Marxism is. Marxism is more systematically anti-Christian than the Art Bohemians were.

"Americanism, and not Globalism, will be our credo."

The Southern Poverty Law Center is for Globalism - a totalitarian world government and a Marxist collectivist society after the family and Christian based culture has been destroyed.

Although only about ten percent of Americans now live in the country, outside of towns and urban areas, these people retain more of "Americanism" than the urban dwellers. So it is suspicious when the mainstream media and the Southern Poverty Law Center attack ranchers in the West, which makes you wonder if that media and the SPLC are not following the Marxist agenda of destroying "Americanism?"

The SPLC and the mainstream media have to become discredited for "Americanism" to flourish again.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/28/editorial-the-fbi-dumps-a-hate-group/

"Something called the Southern Poverty Law Center sounds like a harmless do-good organization of idealistic young lawyers out to make life better for poor folks in the South, most of them likely black. Who wouldn’t want to make life better for poor folks?"

"But looks can be deceiving. The poverty law center, known by its initials SPLC, is actually a money-making scheme — some have called it a “scam” — of an Alabama lawyer who set out years ago to get rich on the backs of the poor and the duped."

"The lawyer, Morris Dees, once defended Ku Klux Klansmen accused of beating up a black reporter covering the Freedom Riders, later raised money for George Wallace and then for George McGovern, and one day had an epiphany, or at least a profitable idea."

"Hate crimes” by SPLC definition now include Christian opposition to same-sex marriage."

"This week it emerged that the FBI, which has included SPLC data as “a resource,” has finally severed its link with the organization and dumped SPLC from the bureau’s Hate Crime Web page."

The SPLC has targeted local police outfits to turn them against any Constitutional or Patriot stance. This has likely happened in Oregon, before the early 2016 Occupation of the Wildlife Preserve.

The SPLC attempt to lead local police to oppose the Patriot movement may have been more successful in Washington, California and Oregon than in other states, See: http://freedomoutpost.com/washington-sheriffs-deputy-need-mraps-deal-constitutionalists/

"A viral video has sparked quite a bit of controversy and protests for the Spokane Valley Police Department. An event that was held December 7 resulted in a sheriff’s deputy making comments about the use of the department’s new MRAP (Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected) vehicle. He claimed that it was needed to protect against “constitutionalists."

Spokane Valley Republican Representative Matthew Shea said, "Constitutionalism is fundamental to being an American. To hate the Constitution and those who support it means you are a traitor to this country."

Here is the dialectic which the SPLC promotes. The dialectic is a direct opposition, and a dividing of the people into two opposing factions. It is the divide and conquer strategy of Marxists. The Marxists are the traitors and the Constitutionalists are the opposite, the Patriots, in "the animating contest of freedom" of Samuel Adams
 

Jose Fly

New member
northwye,

If you want to rant about the Southern Poverty Law Center, start your own thread. This thread is specifically about the trial in Portland, OR.
 

northwye

New member
The Southern Poverty Law Center has been very interested in discrediting the Bundys, which means they are having some influence upon the trials. I just Googled "Southern Poverty Law Center and the Opposition to the Bundys" and here are a few of the hits:

[PDF]War in the West - Southern Poverty Law Center
https://www.splcenter.org/.../war_in_the_w...
Southern Poverty Law Center
finally moved against Bundy. What both point to is a failure of the federal government to come to terms with the true nature of the war in the West. Cliven Bundy ...

War in the West: The Bundy Ranch Standoff and the American Radical ...
https://www.splcenter.org/.../war-west-bund...
Southern Poverty Law Center

Jul 9, 2014 - The Bundy standoff has invigorated an extremist movement that ... A surprised Mack told the SPLC, “Oh, no,” adding, “I was afraid that [Miller] might ... Bundy's opposition to federal jurisdiction in Nevada, a U.S. District Court ...

A Deeper Look at Cliven Bundy's Criminal Indictment | Southern ...
https://www.splcenter.org/.../deeper-look-cl...
Southern Poverty Law Center

Feb 22, 2016 - The new 16-count indictment, returned last week in Nevada, against Cliven Bundy and ... Daniel G. Bogden, the U.S. attorney for Nevada, says the “rule of law” has been reaffirmed. ... to finally bring a litany of criminal charges against Cliven Bundy and the four others is ..... The Southern Poverty Law Center.

SPLC: Public support, perceived victory at Bundy ranch in 2014 ...
https://www.splcenter.org/.../splc-public-su...
Southern Poverty Law Center

Jun 15, 2016 - “Bundy was lionized on Fox News,” Cohen said, “and [Donald] Trump ... to an escalation of extremist threats against federal employees who ...
Line In The Sand | Southern Poverty Law Center

https://www.splcenter.org/...hate/.../line-san...
Southern Poverty Law Center
Jun 13, 2016 - Both Palmer and Bundy were expected to speak at the gathering that ... including the town's police chief — were lodged against Palmer, who ...
670 Days | Southern Poverty Law Center

https://www.splcenter.org/.../670-days
Southern Poverty Law Center
Aug 3, 2016 - The elder Bundy was on his way to help keep alive the occupation, meant to showcase opposition to federal land use policies, but the last four ...

This is a Christian forum, and a place to bring up Christian morality as it relates that the Bundy prosecution and trial. The Southern Poverty Law Center is Leftist, which means it is Marxist, and anti-Christian, and it is having an influence on this prosecution and trial.
 

Jose Fly

New member
This is a Christian forum, and a place to bring up Christian morality as it relates that the Bundy prosecution and trial.

Agreed.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is Leftist, which means it is Marxist, and anti-Christian

Only to those who are limited to extremely simplistic thinking.

and it is having an influence on this prosecution and trial.

How? I've not seen one mention of the SPLC in any of the trial reports.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Tuesday's Trial Highlights, including that when arrested, Ammon Bundy had $8,031 in cash in his jacket, a receipt from a Jan. 1 purchase of nearly $200 in ammunition, and a withdrawal slip in his wallet for $6,000, indicating that he planned on a long stay at the refuge.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Wednesday's Trial Highlights, including that Mark McConnell was actually an FBI informant who tipped Federal Law Enforcement off about the occupiers' plans to drive to Grant County the night Lavoy F. was killed, and Ammon and Ryan Bundy were arrested.

Prosecutors expect to wrap up their case by next Tuesday.
 

northwye

New member
The Christian churches are now having very little influence upon the conflicts which are related to the movement of the elite to gain greater control of the people. This is partly because the Churches have lost their spiritual strength and their credibility. But it is also because Christians do not speak out against specific instances of this movement to greater control, such as the issue of federal land ownership in the Western states.

And a part of the problem is that many Christians are not aware that the ruling elite are moving toward greater control over the people.

One point that is important in the prosecution of the Bundys is that although the long history of their battle with the BLM is very complicated, the BLM has been driving ranchers off the BLM lands by changes in their grazing rules.

The other big point for Christian morality is that Christians have to question the prosecution of the Bundys and all their supporters for the 2014 stand off since there are no victims, no victims as persons, identified.

Most Christians may not understand this issue at all.

The U.S. now has the largest prison population in the world. https://thinkprogress.org/the-unite...world-and-its-growing-d4a35bc9652f#.1c6ke3thi

"Both in raw numbers and by percentage of the population, the United States has the most prisoners of any developed country in the world — and it has the largest total prison population of any nation. That didn’t change in 2013. After several years in which the prison population dropped slightly, the raw number of inmates in United States custody went up again in 2013.

More than 1.57 million inmates sat behind bars in federal, state, and county prisons and jails around the country as of December 31, 2013."

Christian morality would say that not all people who could be put on trial should be put on trial - either because of evidence that is not clear, and especially if there is no victim of the alleged crime. There are no victims in the 2014 Bundy Stand Off. Some authorities in government should have been led by the public outcry to step in and stop the prosecution of the Bundys and their supporters for the 2014 event in Nevada. And one of the reasons why this trial should never have been allowed to happen is because the BLM was driving ranchers off the BLM lands by their changes in the grazing rules - for number of cattle allowed etc.

Then, there is the interpretation of Romans 13 by the present day Churches.

The Catholics and the Church of England interpreted Romans 13 to mean that the ruler has a divine right
to govern the people, given to him by God. The people must obey the ruler, or government in all that he or it does - no matter if what the ruler of government does is morally wrong.

In Romans 13: 1 there is a translation of the Greek word εξουσιαις, exousia, Strongs 1849, as power, rather than authority in the King James Version.

Paul used the Greek word εξουσία, exousia, instead of δύναμις, dunamis, the Greek word for power, in Romans 13:1. Why use power for exousia? If Paul had used dunamis, we would know that he meant power.

The Committee for the King James Bible translated exousia from the Textus Recepus as "Let every soul be subject unto the higher power." This was done because King James wanted it translated that way. It is said also that King James wanted ekklesia to be "Church" instead of congregation or assembly. King James wanted to retain his authority over the people as a high priest between man and God, keeping part of the trappings of the Roman Catholic Church, though King James and his Committee were Protestants. The doctrine of the divine right of the king was to be preserved.

The use of authority for exousia would point to God as having all final authority for born again believers. But power might suggest the King and his rule by divine right, and what they called lesser magistrates.

God is the authority, but he make use of humans as rulers to carry out his authority. And remember that Romans 13 cannot say that we must obey rulers who violate God's commandments.

Romans 13 is subject to scriptures on the rights of men. The ruler cannot act for God if he tramples on the rights of his subjects whether "he" is King or the Federal government and its huge bureaucracy.

Psalm 9: 4
says "For thou hast maintained my right and my cause." Right is fro mishpat, justice. Psalm 9: 4 says God will maintain the right to
justice of the Psalmist.

Psalm 140: 12 says "I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of
the afflicted, and the right of the poor." Afflicted is from aniy,
humble, or lowly in circumstances, and poor is from ebyown, destitute.
Some other texts that promise protection for the rights of the people
are Proverbs 29: 7, and Proverbs 31: 9.

"Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write
grievousness which they have prescribed; to turn aside the needy from
judgment, and to take away the right of the poor of my people...
(Isaiah 10: 1-2)." This is a warning from the Lord to rulers not to
take away the rights of the people, especially of the poor. If the
rulers make and enforce laws that cause harm or injustice to the
powerless, then God says woe to them. This also applies to judges who
judge unrighteously; it also applies to the police and prosecuting
attorneys who charge innocent people with crimes.

Then Isaiah 59: 14 says "And judgment is turned away backward, and
justice standeth afar off : for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter." Judgment is turned away backward and stands
far off in many of our courts now. Equity is defined by Black's Law
Dictionary as "...the spirit and habit of fairness, justness and right
dealing..." The confusion in America from our having become the
Babylon of Prophecy means that moral standards have been lowered and
many morals have been lost.
 

Jose Fly

New member
The other big point for Christian morality is that Christians have to question the prosecution of the Bundys and all their supporters for the 2014 stand off since there are no victims, no victims as persons, identified.

Then you've not been paying attention. Again, it is a felony to prevent a federal employee from performing their duties by use of threats, force, or intimidation. The prosecution has spent this week how the Bundy's and other occupiers did just that.
 

northwye

New member
The issue here is one in which case law, often called common law, can be applied if the judge allows it. Case law allows the defense to claim that an action which is illegal, can be justified as being legal when the police or the government acts in a way contrary to some law, rule or commonly accepted behavior. An example might be a case in which police decide a guy robbed a bank and he tries to drive away in his car. He is arrested and charged with the crime of running from the police, which is a felony. But it is shown that he did not rob the bank. I know of a case in Michigan where this actually happened. The courts would not drop the charge of running from the police, which could have been done under what is called Equity Law.

The were actions of the BLM, against Bundy, upheld by Federal Court judges, that were being used to drive ranchers off BlM lands. In addition, in 2014 a group of military type people were sent to take Bundy's cattle and sell them to pay for a part of his supposed grazing free debt to the BLM. The actions of that military group went beyond rounding up Bundy's cattle. Those actions are on videos which have been on the Internet. And it was those videos which angered people and brought them to come to help Bundy keep is cattle and to stop the harassment of him and his family.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Thursday Summary

The judge has told Bundy lawyer that if he brings up Lavoy F.'s shooting again, he will be found in contempt of court and fined $1,000.

Neighbor of refuge testifies that he heard lots of gunshots at the refuge during the occupation. He also testifies that "snipers" in the watchtower pointed rifles at him.

Prosecutors played phone calls between occupier Jeff Banta and the FBI. Banta said of the militia members "half of them have their screws loose", and "a lot of people I wouldn't put a lot of stock in".
 

Jose Fly

New member
The issue here is one in which case law, often called common law, can be applied if the judge allows it. Case law allows the defense to claim that an action which is illegal, can be justified as being legal when the police or the government acts in a way contrary to some law, rule or commonly accepted behavior.

We'll see next week if the defense team tries this argument.

The were actions of the BLM, against Bundy, upheld by Federal Court judges, that were being used to drive ranchers off BlM lands.

Try and keep up....the current trial is about the occupation in Oregon. The trial for the standoff in Nevada hasn't taken place.

In addition, in 2014 a group of military type people were sent to take Bundy's cattle and sell them to pay for a part of his supposed grazing free debt to the BLM.

Nice try, but they were BLM agents and contractors sent to seize Bundy's cattle per a legal court order, after Bundy refused to pay grazing fees for decades and had lost every court hearing and trial associated with the case.

As I said before, this is mostly about a group of people who cannot accept it when things don't go their way.

The actions of that military group went beyond rounding up Bundy's cattle. Those actions are on videos which have been on the Internet. And it was those videos which angered people and brought them to come to help Bundy keep is cattle and to stop the harassment of him and his family.

If what you say is true, then they should have little trouble when the Nevada trial begins. OTOH, if you're not being truthful, the outcome will be quite different.

I know which way I'm betting.
 

northwye

New member
http://providencefoundation.com/?page_id=1948

"Magna Carta announced the rule of law.”15 It asserted the principle that rulers were subject to the law as well as the common people. Throughout history most people have lived under “rulers’ law” where the rulers, in many ways, were the law. There is no security for the liberty and rights of man in such a system. Magna Carta was a great step forward in changing this. It proclaimed the power of the king was limited."

The idea of the Magna Carta was that the King was also subject to law. Now we have the President who has gradually been given powers almost equal to Kings. Judges, and Federal Judges, are subject to the law

"Rule of law — the entire document reflects the idea that the rulers are subject to the fundamental law. Article 61 says that anything done contrary to the charter should be considered invalid, and a provision was even given for a committee to use armed force against the king if he attempted to violate the charter (this was never used and this provision was omitted from later reissues of the charter).

http://providencefoundation.com/?page_id=1948

"The foundation of American constitutionalism was an understanding by the American people of the Gospel and Biblical law. The founding father of American education, Noah Webster, understood the importance of imparting this truth to American youth. In the Preface to his History of the United States (first published in 1832) he wrote:

The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion."

"The governmental philosophy of a nation is the product of the educational philosophy of a nation. Webster knew that in order for America to be free and prosper, the youth and adults of America must beeducated in governmental principles of liberty, which could only be found in the Christian religion. In 1829 he wrote to James Madison:

that the christian religion, in its purity, is the basis or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government.. . . I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist & be durable, in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

https://billmuehlenberg.com/2015/06/16/magna-carta-the-christian-connection/

"At least until the early 19th century, the common law was heavily influenced by Christian philosophy. This philosophy argues that there is a divine reason for the existence of fundamental laws, and that such laws are superior to human-made legislation, thus reflecting universal and unchangeable principles by which everyone should live."

We want to have a legal system which includes older Equity and Common law principles, not reinforce the system which now exists in American courts including in the federal courts.

The jury system can allow for a jury to openly judge the law in a case as well as the facts. Now a jury might get by finding a defendant not guilty because the jury believed the law itself was wrong as long as they do not say this is the reason or their decision.

http://freedomoutpost.com/judges-wi...ew-hampshire-if-this-bill-is-signed-into-law/

"The new bill that just passed the New Hampshire House requires the court to instruct the jurors that the jury determines the applicability of the law to the facts of the case.

According to the bill, "The legislature finds that the New Hampshire Constitution, Part 1, Article 21 identifies trial by jury to be an inestimable privilege indicating its importance in the application of law and justice. Furthermore, Part 1, Article 12 identifies a role of the people in approving law; the only location for this consent is the jury."

This is a step in the right direction.
 

northwye

New member
The Southern Poverty Law Center has been trying to discredit the Bundys, other Western ranchers, and their supporters.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2003/‘cultural-marxism’-catching

"Television commentator Pat Buchanan says it is being used to "de-Christianize" America. Washington heavyweight William Lind claims it is turning U.S. college campuses into "ivy-covered North Koreas." Retired naval commander Gerald Atkinson fears it has invaded the nation's military academies. Immigration activist John Vinson suggests it aims "to distort and destroy" our country.

"Cultural Marxism," described as a conspiratorial attempt to wreck American culture and morality, is the newest intellectual bugaboo on the radical right. Surprisingly, there are signs that this bizarre theory is catching on in the mainstream.

The phrase refers to a kind of "political correctness" on steroids — a covert assault on the American way of life that allegedly has been developed by the left over the course of the last 70 years. Those who are pushing the "cultural Marxism" scenario aren't merely poking fun at the PC excesses of the "People's Republic of Berkeley," or the couple of American cities whose leaders renamed manholes "person-holes" in a bid to root out sexist thought.

Right-wing ideologues, racists and other extremists have jazzed up political correctness and repackaged it — in its most virulent form, as an anti-Semitic theory that identifies Jews in general and several Jewish intellectuals in particular as nefarious, communistic destroyers. "

The Southern Poverty Law Center says that critics of Transformational Marxism, which is Cultural Marxism and Political Correctness, is anti-Semitic. I want to look more closely at this article and see if they explain why they think it is anti-Semitic.

Yes, they do explain why criticism of Transformatioinal Marxism, coming out of the Frankfurt School, is anti-Semitic, "In a nutshell, the theory posits that a tiny group of Jewish philosophers who fled Germany in the 1930s and set up shop at Columbia University in New York City devised an unorthodox form of "Marxism" that took aim at American society's culture, rather than its economic system."

Though the statement is not very accurate, they do say "the theory" which is Transformational Marxism was created by Jews. They were not just philosophers, but were Marxist intellectuals who posed as university professors. It is true that Tranformational Marxism was created to weaken and destroy the family and Christian based American culture, part of what Trump called "Americanism."

"Political correctness looms over American society like a colossus," William Lind, a principal of far-right political strategist Paul Weyrich's Free Congress Foundation and a key popularizer of the idea of cultural Marxism, warned in a 1998 speech. "It has taken over both political parties and is enforced by many laws and government regulations. It almost totally controls the most powerful element in our culture, the entertainment industry. It dominates both public and higher education. ... It has even captured the clergy in many Christian churches." So says the SPLC.

"But it may be William Lind, who has long worked at the Free Congress Foundation that his ally Paul Weyrich founded, who has done the most to define the enemies who make up the so-called "cultural Marxists." Ultimately, this enemy has come to embody a whole host of Lind's bête noires — feminists, LGBT people, secular humanists, multiculturalists, sex educators, environmentalists, immigrants, black nationalists, the ACLU and the hated Frankfurt School philosophers."

This article is telling the truth to some extent about Transformational Marxism and Political Correctness.

The original Frankfurters were all Jewish intellectuals. But after several of them migrated to the U.S. and became professors at Brandeis and Berkeley, some American social engineers joined them, and a few years after the Marxist Theodore W. Adorno's 1950 book, The Authoritarian Personality, some of these American psychologists and psychiatrists, such as Carl Rogers, were not Jewish.

Why has the Southern Poverty Law Center been so interested in discrediting the Bundy people and perhaps helping to put them behind bars? It may be part of their program of discrediting the entire conservative movement. The SPLC article on Transformational Marxism may be an effort to take attention off of themselves as being Leftists which means they are Marxists.
 

northwye

New member
More on the Southern Poverty Law Center's Leftist Ideology - And this is the group who are trying to discredit the Bundys and those who came to help them in April of 2014.

https://capitalresearch.org/2012/10/southern-poverty-law-center-wellspring-of-manufactured-hate/

"SPLC’s first president was Julian Bond, a socialist who has supported and participated in socialist, communist, and other radical leftist organizations and activities his entire life. As a rising star in the Left he received the early endorsement and support of the Communist Party USA, and he assisted, endorsed, and campaigned for radical causes and politicians, according to DiscoverTheNetworks.org."

"Bond’s most significant contact as co-chair of the NCNP was fellow NCNP member Herbert Marcuse. A Marxist who fled Nazi Germany in 1933, Marcuse ultimately took up residence in a number of American universities, including Columbia, Harvard, Brandeis, and the University of California, San Diego, where he mentored the black communist, Angela Davis. Bond and Marcuse helped found the radical journal In These Times.

Bond visited Castro’s Cuba in 1959 and was “enchanted by the revolution.” Following a repeat visit in 2006 he said that it “simply reinforced my admiration for the Cuban people and the society they are building.” (See http://www.medicc.org/cubahealthreports/chr-article.php?&a=1027.) Bond remains on SPLC’s board to this day."

I am changing the subject here. http://thewatcherfiles.com/bloodlines/bundy.htm

The Bundy family is one of the families belonging to the elite. "Most Americans would not recognize the Bundy family as a powerful elite family. However, during recent history two Bundy brothers held the key positions that controlled most of the information that was fed to U.S. Presidents during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. When Johnson took over after J.F. Kennedy was assassinated McGeorge Bundy was in the key position as Nat. Sec. Advisor to determine what the President did and didn’t hear. His brother was in a key State Dept. position. Both Bundy brothers were also fraternal brothers of the Illuminati Order of the Skull and Bones. Interestingly, Jonas Mills Bundy (1835-1891) was a key advisor to President Grant, President Garfield, and President Chester A. Arthur. McGeorge Bundy and his brother William P. Bundy have held important CFR and important Bilderberger positions. This in itself makes it clear that the position and power of these two men is extensive. "

Is Cliven Bundy a member of this elite family? There are many articles on the Internet about the Bundy clash with the federal government, but I have not seen anything on whether Cliven Bundy is part of the elite Bundy bloodline.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/william-norman-grigg/ranchers-vs-regulators/

"This, in broad outline, is the story that unfolded at an overpass outside Bunkerville, Nevada on April 12, 2014..."

The stand off on April 12, 2014 featured a crowd of Americans who came from many states, were not organized, but included some members of small organized militias - and the "cavalry," men and a few women on horseback in a 21st century re-enactment of the range war Western scenario.

The Range War Western is a story formula of the Western novel in which a villain, who plays the role of a respectable insider banker or businessman, cheats local landowners out of their lands, and uses a band of Yahoo type outlaws as his enforcers.

"This act of government-licensed cattle rustling was carried out by a roundup company from Nephi, Utah, aided by a paramilitary force of roughly 200 people from the Bureau of Land Management.."

"Through what must be considered an act of Providence, no lives were lost on April 12.

"A bloodier version of the same story played on on the same day 122 years ago in Wyoming’s Johnson County: Hundreds of citizens surrounded the TA Ranch, which was the base of operations for dozens of gunmen who had been deputized by the state government, provided with a roster of troublesome local ranchers, and ordered to execute every man whose name was inscribed on the kill list."

"In both cases, the aggressors – the BLM and federal comrades in Bunkerville, a corporatist clique called the Wyoming Stock Growers Association in Johnson County – claimed to be acting in the name of the law, which for them was digested to a single arrogant claim: “The land is ours because we say it is."

"Tne inevitable result of the elite onslaught was a culture clash between the Europeans steeped in feudal conceits and traditions and the incorrigibly individualistic knights of the plains."

The Bundy versus BLM Range War is interesting because it is epic in 2014-16, is a part of a larger clash between Americanism and an increasing totalitarian government, and fits the scenario of the Range War Western story formula.

I want to change the topic again. The Catholic - and also for some protestant churches - interpretation of Romans 13 which emphasizes that Christians must obey the government no matter how immoral its actions and policies follows, in part, the translation of the Greek word εξουσία, exousia, as power rather than as authority. Authority implies that the authority is God, not men in government. δύναμις, dunamis, was not used in Romans 13: 1, which does mean power.

The William Tyndale New Testament of 1526 for Romans 13: 1 says "Let every soul submit himself unto the authority of the higher powers. For there is no power but of God." But the King James Versions says "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

William Tyndale alone translated the Textus Receptus into English, while the King James Committee in 1611 used many of the verse wordings or close to those of Tyndale, he King James Version has a few important changes from he earlier Tyndale New Testament. For example, Tyndale translates ekklesia as congregation the King James Version translates ekklesia as church
 

northwye

New member
http://patch.com/oregon/portland/or...-judge-threatens-ammon-bundys-lawyer-contempt

"The federal judge overseeing the trial of seven people charged in connection with the 41-day armed takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge threatened a defense lawyer with contempt Thursday morning.

Judge Anna Brown told Ammon Bundy's lawyer, Marcus Mumford, to stop asking witnesses about the shooting death of Bundy associate LaVoy Finicum."

".Defense lawyers have tried to make Finicum's death and the actions of the FBI part of the trial, but Brown has repeatedly told lawyers not to address his death beyond that he was killed and when"
Federal Judge Anna Brown was nominated to the federal United States District Court for the District of Oregon by President Bill Clinton.

If Levoy Finicum's shooting death was the result of actions by the FBI and the Oregon State Police,which were not justified in the law enforcement situation, then the jury should be made aware of this as a fact for the jury.
The jury should be the ones to decide what evidence is relevant in this case and consider that evidence on Fenicom's death, not the judge.

http://www.independentsentinel.com/tag/lavoy-finicum/

"There is an update to this story and the FBI’s role in covering up shooting at LaVoy Finicum the second he stepped out of his truck. The Finicum family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the government."

"Cell phone video captured from inside Finicum’s vehicle includes what sounds like shots being fired, as individuals in the car yell, “They’re shooting.”

"Investigators have announced that they believe an FBI agent fired twice at Robert “LaVoy” Finicum, missed and then concealed the shots."

"The following video is from Shawna Cox’s cell phone, enlarged and in slow motion."

"The investigators are looking into whether several FBI agents lied about firing two shots at LaVoy which was the impetus for what was to follow."

"Prior to the killing, the FBI had let them move about freely. Suddenly, the FBI was trying to kill them?"

"This is the fair leftist justice we’ve heard so much about but which is not evenly distributed to some members of society."

Here is the entire Shawna Cox cell phone video from inside LaVoy Finicum's truck. The video starts when Fenicom first stops. Then he goes on a bit and runs into the road block. Note that there is the sound of a gunshot just as Fenicom gets out of his truck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4

Here is commentary on the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhMbxMvSv5A

David Knight, above, is a reporter for Infowars, that is, Alex Jones. The politically correct people dismiss Jones as jut a conspiracy theorist. But see: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/infowars.com

http://www.talkradio923.com/?page_id=260

"Alex Jones is internationally recognized by many as a trailblazer of new media and an icon of the burgeoning liberty movement."

"As the dinosaur mainstream media enters terminal decline, Infowars.com has soared to become one of the most prominent news websites on the Internet, beating the likes of MSNBC.com in terms of web traffic. In addition, Jones' daily radio show regularly tops 20 million viewers a week"

Apr 26, 2016 ... The Bundy Women; followed by Stan Deyo on The Hagmann & Hagmann Report ... The Official Hagmann & Hagmann Report ... Show more

Apr 21, 2014 ... Steve Quayle & Dave Hodges Tonight on The Hagmann & Hagmann Report ... Consider now the battle between the Bureau of Land Management and Cliven Bundy, the last ... Dave Hodges: The Common Sense Show.

Doug Hagmann and Steve Quayle are Christians,and are part of the alternative media.
 
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Jose Fly

New member
Judge Anna Brown told Ammon Bundy's lawyer, Marcus Mumford, to stop asking witnesses about the shooting death of Bundy associate LaVoy Finicum."

Because the circumstances of Finicum's death have nothing to do with whether or not the Bundy's et al. are guilty of conspiring to prevent federal employees from carrying out their duties.

David Knight, above, is a reporter for Infowars, that is, Alex Jones. The politically correct people dismiss Jones as jut a conspiracy theorist.

I'll let the fact that you rely on Alex Jones and InfoWars speak for itself.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Oregon standoff defendant Scott Willingham sentenced for theft of government cameras

Scott Willingham, who was part of the security team during the takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, was sentenced Friday for theft of government property in federal court in Portland.

Willingham, in custody since mid-March, was sentenced to six months with credit for the time he's already served.

As soon as a bed becomes available, he'll move to a residential treatment facility for up to four months under a plea deal. He's also been ordered to undergo mental health, alcohol and drug evaluations.

In May, Willingham, 49, pleaded guilty to taking or converting government-owned cameras for his own use outside the wildlife refuge in Harney County. He faced two counts of theft of government property but entered a guilty plea to one count. The other was dismissed.

And this case is particularly weird....

His attorney said Willingham "laid low'' once occupation leaders were arrested, concerned that a warrant would be issued for his arrest. But once he heard rumors burbling on the Internet that some people suspected he was serving as a government informant, Willingham tried to turn himself into law enforcement, according to his attorney's memo.

"To his surprise, law enforcement did not want to arrest Mr. Willingham,'' his attorney wrote. "In order to get arrested, Mr. Willingham threatened to shoot agents. The threats were not serious.''

Willingham was arrested in Grant County on March 16 on weapons charges.

Um....yeah :dizzy: I think a mental health evaluation is definitely in order.
 

northwye

New member
Romans 13 is subject to scriptures on the rights of men. The ruler cannot act for God if he tramples on the rights of his subjects whether "he" is King or the Federal government and its huge bureaucracy.

Compartmentalization enables the church Christians to side step the moral implications of the conflict now going on between a federal government moving to totalitarianism, acting as traitors, and the patriots who want to end that totalitarianism.

And the use of the dialectic process of quarreling gives the appearance of the feds being in the right on this conflict.

As far as Christian morality is concerned, the dialectic is a type of argument being waged against absolute truth and absolute morality, with an amount of misrepresentation in the arguments.
 

northwye

New member
http://www.independentamericanparty.org/2016/09/bundy-trial-already-rigged/

The current Bundy trial in Portland can be seen to be part of a Leftist government's attempt to discredit its opposition, so that the Leftist government can, if it stays in power, gain more control over the people.

"We are looking directly into the face of governmental tyranny unabashedly displaying itself with cold cruelty in a theatrical abomination of the very purpose of “justice”. The infrastructure of power now has its own evil momentum and will lay to waste any dissent, in order to protect the gigantic fraud which the mechanism of government has asserted through “code” and “statute”, through “color of law” and “rules of the court”. States’ Rights be damned; Jury Nullification be damned; it’s full steam ahead for the soul-less, ego-driven hunger of authoritarian power dressed appropriately in the black robes of darkness and death."

" Quoting former Washington State Supreme Court Justice William Goodloe:

“Of all the great trials in history tried at Old Bailey in London only one is commemorated by a plaque. Located near Courtroom Number Five it reads:

“Near this site William Penn and William Mead were tried in 1670 for preaching to an unlawful assembly in Gracechurch Street. This tablet commemorates the courage and endurance of the Jury. Thomas Vere, Edward Bushell and ten others, who refused to give a verdict against them although they were locked up without food for two nights and were fined for their final verdict of Not Guilty. The case of these jurymen was reviewed on a writ of Habeas Corpus and Chief Justice Vaughan delivered the opinion of the court which established the Right of Juries to give their Verdict according to their conviction.”

“The case commemorated is Bushell’s Case, 6 Howell’s State Trials 999 (1670). This case is a good beginning for tracing the roots of a legal doctrine known as jury nullification.” (End quoted passage by Justice William Goodloe, ret.)"

"The judge also said she intends to question each juror on whether they were handed a flier outside court about jury nullification, and to instruct them that they must follow the law even if they disagree with it. Judge Brown said deputy U.S. marshals indicated there may be people outside court distributing such fliers.

Ryan Bundy and Ammon Bundy’s lawyer Marcus Mumford objected to the judge’s proposed instructions to prospective jurors. Ryan Bundy argued that they will “rob a juror” of the right to serve as a “check and balance” on the federal government’s power.

Mumford asked that the judge not suggest that any of the defendants were responsible for such fliers.

“A jury’s place is to be able to use their common sense, their intellect, their conscience, whether the law is proper or not proper,” Ryan Bundy argued.

Judge Brown dismissed his objection."

"One of the phrases in my culture when I was growing up was — “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” My question today is why do most judges insist on remaining ignorant of the highest uncontested law of the land? It must be something like a fervent and worshipful passion for that un-named religion called “Statism”, the philosophy of worshiping authority over all else in the name of Statism..."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376361/after-bundy-fracas-ben-carson

"Only we can prevent uncontrolled abuse by the federal government. The Cliven Bundy case in Nevada provides many insights into the state of our nation with respect to the relationship between the people and the government."

"The Bundys appear to be honorable American citizens without adequate legal counsel to help resolve a federal land issue about which they disagree with the Bureau of Land Management. Without question, they violated some of the innumerable laws and regulations that continue to entangle every aspect of American life. Their violations certainly could have been handled through a multitude of less brutal means than those employed by our federal government, which through the mouthpiece of Senator Harry Reid emphasizes how important it is for the government to enforce its laws. It is quite interesting to see, though, that those same bureaucrats refuse to enforce some of our federal border-protection laws and other domestic policies with which they disagree. Perhaps Reid’s time could be better spent explaining why it is acceptable for the federal government to pick and choose which laws it wishes to enforce."

"Their violations certainly could have been handled through a multitude of less brutal means than those employed by our federal government"

The federal government, represented by the FBI in Oregon, had allowed the Bundys and their friends to move around freely - and then all of a sudden the FBI and the Oregon State Police set up a road block where they tried to kill two men and two women in Fenicom's truck. They allowed a video of Shawna Cox's cell phone video from inside LaVoy Finicum's truck to be put on the Internet. This video shows that the police began firing at the truck as soon as Finicom stepped out, and that numerous shots were fired at the truck after Finicom was killed.
 
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