annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I can see that. It's an interesting case to follow.
The Bundy Bunch Trial Begins
- Thread starter Jose Fly
- Start date
I can see that. It's an interesting case to follow.
There is one similarity between the current trial of the Bundy people in Portland and the trial of Randy Weaver and friend for the Ruby Ridge event, and the trial of the few surviving Branch Davidians in the Waco massacre. This is that Randy Weaver, the Branch Davidians and the Bundy family are members of Christian "cults." Randy Weaver was a follower of the Christian Identity movement, a kind of white supremacist Christian group and may have been targeted in part for this reason. He was asked by an undercover federal agent to saw off a shotgun and sell it to him.
The Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist denomination and considered to be a cult by many church Christians. Before the federal attack on them by the BATF there were attempts to discredit them by individuals and the mainstream media. While many in Waco did not consider them a cult, or anything but friendly people, some did think they were cultish,, and the Waco Tribune-Herald ran a series of attacks upon them and their leader called "Sinful Messiah - in February of 1993, right before the federal attack on them.
In the trial of the surviving Branch Davidians the jury in San Antonio in 1994 found them all not guilty of conspiracy and murder, but it did find them guilty of using a firearm in the commission of a federal offense. Judge Smith initially said that the firearms charge would be set aside because it conflicted with the acquittal on the main charges. But two days later, he sentenced the men for using automatic firearms, even though there was no proof that any of the them had used that type of weapon during the Davidians' shootout with the BATF. Apparently the Branch Davidians had semi-automatic rifles but not fully automatic ones as the judge claimed. Many surviving Davidians got long sentences.
During the trial of the Davidians, the judge would not allow the defense attorneys to bring up self-defense arguments in the shoot out with the BATF.
The Bundy family are Mormans, another "cult."
There is another important similarity between the Waco massacre event in 1993 and the Bundy events in 2014 and early 2016, and that is that both events occurred under Leftist Democratic Party administrations. The Waco event was during the first Bill Clinton administration in which Janet Reno as Attorney General played an important role and reports say that Hillary was involved in making decisions regarding how to deal with the situation.
The rise of the patriot movement, first mostly on short wave in the nineties, was given a lot of momentum by the Waco massacre, led at least to a great extent by Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton.
The Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist denomination and considered to be a cult by many church Christians. Before the federal attack on them by the BATF there were attempts to discredit them by individuals and the mainstream media. While many in Waco did not consider them a cult, or anything but friendly people, some did think they were cultish,, and the Waco Tribune-Herald ran a series of attacks upon them and their leader called "Sinful Messiah - in February of 1993, right before the federal attack on them.
In the trial of the surviving Branch Davidians the jury in San Antonio in 1994 found them all not guilty of conspiracy and murder, but it did find them guilty of using a firearm in the commission of a federal offense. Judge Smith initially said that the firearms charge would be set aside because it conflicted with the acquittal on the main charges. But two days later, he sentenced the men for using automatic firearms, even though there was no proof that any of the them had used that type of weapon during the Davidians' shootout with the BATF. Apparently the Branch Davidians had semi-automatic rifles but not fully automatic ones as the judge claimed. Many surviving Davidians got long sentences.
During the trial of the Davidians, the judge would not allow the defense attorneys to bring up self-defense arguments in the shoot out with the BATF.
The Bundy family are Mormans, another "cult."
There is another important similarity between the Waco massacre event in 1993 and the Bundy events in 2014 and early 2016, and that is that both events occurred under Leftist Democratic Party administrations. The Waco event was during the first Bill Clinton administration in which Janet Reno as Attorney General played an important role and reports say that Hillary was involved in making decisions regarding how to deal with the situation.
The rise of the patriot movement, first mostly on short wave in the nineties, was given a lot of momentum by the Waco massacre, led at least to a great extent by Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton.
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http://redoubtnews.com/2016/10/06/michele-testifies-political-prisoners/
"Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore took the stand in the Malheur Protest Trial in Portland today.
As a member of the Coalition of Western States (C.O.W.S.) she explained that their organization has a couple of divisions. Part of the Legislative division, she said they “help promote liberties against a tyrannical government.” They also work on restoring property rights for individuals.
Fiore testified about going to Bunkerville in 2014. When many of her constituents called her complaining of the overreaching Bureau of Land Management, she said she did not believe them. She went there, she testified, “Like a Mom whose children were complaining of a monster under the bed.” When she got there, she realized there really was a Big monster!
Fiore also told of visiting the Malheur Refuge in January 2016. First, she verified through Oregon officials that no laws were broken. This prompted the prosecution and Judge Anna Brown to admonish this lawmaker to stop making statements interpreting the law. Judge Brown explained that only she, as the judge, can explain the law to the jurors. Fiore was told not to express her ‘opinion’ on whether laws were broken.
Fiore did make a powerful statement during one portion of her testimony when she stated that LaVoy Finicum was murdered. This threw the prosecutors and the judge into fits, where Fiore was, again, admonished by the judge and told not to characterize Finicum’s death in that manner.
Fiore, a popular legislator, became even more so as she waved to the jury while walked out of the courtroom."
"Next on the stand was Brandon Rapolla, one of the founders of the Pacific Patriots Network (PPN). Rapolla was called in to dispute the prosecutions claims of Ammon’s group being heavily armed and dangerous, based mostly on the photograph shown here.
Rapolla said that this was a photo of the PPN arriving to deliver “Articles of Resolution” to Ammon. Threats had been made against the founders of the PPN, so as the tactical officer, he made the decision to have an armed security detail available.
No member of the ‘Citizens For Constitutional Freedom’ were present, or a part of the group pictured. This photograph was entered into evidence by the prosecution in the Malheur Protest Trial.
Thursday should bring several more witnesses to the stand for the defense, as well as cross examination of Ammon Bundy by the prosecution."
"Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore took the stand in the Malheur Protest Trial in Portland today.
As a member of the Coalition of Western States (C.O.W.S.) she explained that their organization has a couple of divisions. Part of the Legislative division, she said they “help promote liberties against a tyrannical government.” They also work on restoring property rights for individuals.
Fiore testified about going to Bunkerville in 2014. When many of her constituents called her complaining of the overreaching Bureau of Land Management, she said she did not believe them. She went there, she testified, “Like a Mom whose children were complaining of a monster under the bed.” When she got there, she realized there really was a Big monster!
Fiore also told of visiting the Malheur Refuge in January 2016. First, she verified through Oregon officials that no laws were broken. This prompted the prosecution and Judge Anna Brown to admonish this lawmaker to stop making statements interpreting the law. Judge Brown explained that only she, as the judge, can explain the law to the jurors. Fiore was told not to express her ‘opinion’ on whether laws were broken.
Fiore did make a powerful statement during one portion of her testimony when she stated that LaVoy Finicum was murdered. This threw the prosecutors and the judge into fits, where Fiore was, again, admonished by the judge and told not to characterize Finicum’s death in that manner.
Fiore, a popular legislator, became even more so as she waved to the jury while walked out of the courtroom."
"Next on the stand was Brandon Rapolla, one of the founders of the Pacific Patriots Network (PPN). Rapolla was called in to dispute the prosecutions claims of Ammon’s group being heavily armed and dangerous, based mostly on the photograph shown here.
Rapolla said that this was a photo of the PPN arriving to deliver “Articles of Resolution” to Ammon. Threats had been made against the founders of the PPN, so as the tactical officer, he made the decision to have an armed security detail available.
No member of the ‘Citizens For Constitutional Freedom’ were present, or a part of the group pictured. This photograph was entered into evidence by the prosecution in the Malheur Protest Trial.
Thursday should bring several more witnesses to the stand for the defense, as well as cross examination of Ammon Bundy by the prosecution."
Jose Fly
New member
A summary of yesterday's cross examination of Ammon Bundy, where he suddenly couldn't remember a lot of what he said, claimed they didn't break into government computers (even though there is direct evidence they did), denied being a leader of the occupation (funny how now the cause isn't quite worth as much), admitting that he knew federal employees worked at the refuge, saying the reason they were so heavily armed was "to protect our first amendment rights", and admitting that he took a $530,000 SBA loan from the federal government.
Zeke
Well-known member
Wake me up when the Bankers are on trail along with the Corporate Govern mentalist that control this FICTION
"Craig Drummond, a federal criminal defense attorney based in Las Vegas...said the lawyers for the Bundys have difficult cases on their hands, specifically because the government does not have to prove the Bundys themselves committed any crimes."
“We don’t have to prove all these specific acts,” Drummond said. “We can say you’re a part of a larger scheme." .
Not having to prove a defendant committed any specific crime - which made a victim of an individual or individuals - is a violation of common law.
Ammon Bundy made a point when he said that he was dressing to show he was not innocent until found guilty.
The right to be considered as being innocent of a crime until found guilty by a jury does not appear in any of the Constitutional amendments, but is, in fact, a part of common law.
Are the federal courts moving away from upholding common law?
And are the recent Leftist Democratic Party administrations - Bill Clinton and Obama - responsible to a great extent for moving away from common law? Combined, we have had sixteen years of Leftist rule since Bill and Hillary took over the White House in January of 1993. Waco happened in April of 1993. George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush worked for the financial and corporate ruling elite, which has world government - and not common law as a goal. It takes time to replace federal judges appointed by the Leftist administrations.
“We don’t have to prove all these specific acts,” Drummond said. “We can say you’re a part of a larger scheme." .
Not having to prove a defendant committed any specific crime - which made a victim of an individual or individuals - is a violation of common law.
Ammon Bundy made a point when he said that he was dressing to show he was not innocent until found guilty.
The right to be considered as being innocent of a crime until found guilty by a jury does not appear in any of the Constitutional amendments, but is, in fact, a part of common law.
Are the federal courts moving away from upholding common law?
And are the recent Leftist Democratic Party administrations - Bill Clinton and Obama - responsible to a great extent for moving away from common law? Combined, we have had sixteen years of Leftist rule since Bill and Hillary took over the White House in January of 1993. Waco happened in April of 1993. George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush worked for the financial and corporate ruling elite, which has world government - and not common law as a goal. It takes time to replace federal judges appointed by the Leftist administrations.
Jose Fly
New member
A summary of Tuesday's proceedings:
Defense resumes with testimony on FBI informant, David Fry's mental eval and 'ugly guns'
Defense resumes with testimony on FBI informant, David Fry's mental eval and 'ugly guns'
Jose Fly
New member
Defense rests with witness confirming he was FBI informant and ran occupation's shooting range
There's a lot at the article, including the revelation that the FBI had 15 informants providing info on the occupation.
There's a lot at the article, including the revelation that the FBI had 15 informants providing info on the occupation.
Jose Fly
New member
A summary of the prosecution's closing argument, and a glimpse into the defense's early stages of making their closing arguments.
The jury could be given the case as early as the end of today.
The jury could be given the case as early as the end of today.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...itia-standoff-bundy-brothers-not-guilty-trial
"The court proceedings drew packed crowds of rightwing supporters, who see the Bundy family as a symbol of the American west and the fight against government overreach, as well liberal environmentalists, who have called for harsh prison sentences to send a message that the government will protect public lands and promote conservation."
"Neil Wampler, one of the acquitted defendants, appeared joyful outside of court, telling reporters: “This is a stunning victory for rural America and an extremely humiliating defeat for a corrupt and predatory agency.”
"“Their way of life is going away, and unless all of us here in the cities care about that, that’s exactly what’s going to happen,” he said outside of the courthouse. “It was a very powerful thing for individuals with nothing,” he added, to “fight the federal government”.
"After the verdict, Ammon Bundy’s lawyer, Marcus Mumford, reportedly got into a confrontation with the judge, Anna Brown, when he requested his client’s immediate release.
A separate trial, involving Ammon, Ryan, Cliven and two other Bundy men, is planned for next year in Nevada on charges stemming from the 2014 standoff. Given the pending case, authorities refused to release Ammon in Oregon. When Mumford argued, he allegedly ended up in a scuffle with US marshals, resulting in his arrest. "
"Mumford was released soon after, telling reporters that officers shocked him with a Taser."
"Jason Liss, a Bundy supporter wearing a “Hillary for Prison 2016” shirt, said the court win could help promote the idea that federal agencies aren’t allowed to control public lands – an argument that legal experts and courts have rejected.
“It’s great a group of people still believe the constitution is the foundation of our country.”
The Oregon decision could have significant implications for the Nevada case, where the Bundys and a group of activists still face a range of similar accusations, including charges of conspiracy.
Ryan’s wife said she hoped the jury’s decision would pave the way for a clear win next year. “Ranchers have been oppressed long enough.”
Lisa said prosecutors should end the case against Ammon in Nevada.
“I hope they realize they don’t have anything and drop the charges,” she said, adding, “He would just love nothing more than to come home to his babies even though he knows he has to go to Nevada.”
It is interesting that an Oregon jury found the Bundys and supporters not guilty at a time when there is a nationwide populist and patriot movement rising.
The Guardian - apparently the London Guardian - said "The court proceedings drew packed crowds of rightwing supporters, who see the Bundy family as a symbol of the American west..."
The culture of the American West is not necessarily "right wing." The two major American historians of the West, Frederick Jackson Turner and Walter Prescott Webb, did not see the West as "rightwing,"but as central to the emerging larger American culture of the 19th and 20th centuries. Turner,in his 1893 Frontier Thesis, said that American culture and our democracy were formed by the American Western Frontier.
Walter Prescott Webb in The Great Planes (1931) said that the great distances and sparse population of the West encouraged self-reliance. And Webb said that the people of the Great Planes West were "lawless," not meaning they were all outlaws, but that they were nonconformists who were not easily dominated and controlled. Webb emphasized the states of the Great Planes as being the West in culture,which did not include California, Oregon and Washington.
"The court proceedings drew packed crowds of rightwing supporters, who see the Bundy family as a symbol of the American west and the fight against government overreach, as well liberal environmentalists, who have called for harsh prison sentences to send a message that the government will protect public lands and promote conservation."
"Neil Wampler, one of the acquitted defendants, appeared joyful outside of court, telling reporters: “This is a stunning victory for rural America and an extremely humiliating defeat for a corrupt and predatory agency.”
"“Their way of life is going away, and unless all of us here in the cities care about that, that’s exactly what’s going to happen,” he said outside of the courthouse. “It was a very powerful thing for individuals with nothing,” he added, to “fight the federal government”.
"After the verdict, Ammon Bundy’s lawyer, Marcus Mumford, reportedly got into a confrontation with the judge, Anna Brown, when he requested his client’s immediate release.
A separate trial, involving Ammon, Ryan, Cliven and two other Bundy men, is planned for next year in Nevada on charges stemming from the 2014 standoff. Given the pending case, authorities refused to release Ammon in Oregon. When Mumford argued, he allegedly ended up in a scuffle with US marshals, resulting in his arrest. "
"Mumford was released soon after, telling reporters that officers shocked him with a Taser."
"Jason Liss, a Bundy supporter wearing a “Hillary for Prison 2016” shirt, said the court win could help promote the idea that federal agencies aren’t allowed to control public lands – an argument that legal experts and courts have rejected.
“It’s great a group of people still believe the constitution is the foundation of our country.”
The Oregon decision could have significant implications for the Nevada case, where the Bundys and a group of activists still face a range of similar accusations, including charges of conspiracy.
Ryan’s wife said she hoped the jury’s decision would pave the way for a clear win next year. “Ranchers have been oppressed long enough.”
Lisa said prosecutors should end the case against Ammon in Nevada.
“I hope they realize they don’t have anything and drop the charges,” she said, adding, “He would just love nothing more than to come home to his babies even though he knows he has to go to Nevada.”
It is interesting that an Oregon jury found the Bundys and supporters not guilty at a time when there is a nationwide populist and patriot movement rising.
The Guardian - apparently the London Guardian - said "The court proceedings drew packed crowds of rightwing supporters, who see the Bundy family as a symbol of the American west..."
The culture of the American West is not necessarily "right wing." The two major American historians of the West, Frederick Jackson Turner and Walter Prescott Webb, did not see the West as "rightwing,"but as central to the emerging larger American culture of the 19th and 20th centuries. Turner,in his 1893 Frontier Thesis, said that American culture and our democracy were formed by the American Western Frontier.
Walter Prescott Webb in The Great Planes (1931) said that the great distances and sparse population of the West encouraged self-reliance. And Webb said that the people of the Great Planes West were "lawless," not meaning they were all outlaws, but that they were nonconformists who were not easily dominated and controlled. Webb emphasized the states of the Great Planes as being the West in culture,which did not include California, Oregon and Washington.
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Jose Fly
New member
One of the jurors wrote an email to The Oregonian explaining their verdict...
And once the jury acquitted on the conspiracy charges, they had to do the same with the others (all the others were directly tied to conspiracy).
The irony here is that the occupiers were protesting government overreach, and in the end they were acquitted because the government overreached on the charges. :think:
And once the jury acquitted on the conspiracy charges, they had to do the same with the others (all the others were directly tied to conspiracy).
The irony here is that the occupiers were protesting government overreach, and in the end they were acquitted because the government overreached on the charges. :think:
