The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

Skeptic

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Re: Re: Question for Darwin.

Re: Re: Question for Darwin.

Originally posted by Gerald
Who did the first person to speak French talk to?
:chuckle:
Another French speaking person, of course!

Don't you know the story of the Tower of Babel? Languages did not evolve any more than life!

Don't you know no better? :chuckle:
 

Rational Human

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Re: Truth

Re: Truth

RH - Your opinion that god is true is only true to you and those who share your opinion.

Husband - Two contradictory statements can not both be true. Either God exists and I am right or God does not exist and I am wrong. An opinion can not change a truth no matter how many fools hold it.

RH - Not my point. Your opinion that god exists is true to you but false to me whereas by disbelief in god is true to me but wrong to you. I cannot explain it any clearer than that.
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RH - The main difference between you and I is that you have to have an answer for everything.

Husband - Not so. I "know in part and see in part" and that’s good enough for me.

You, on the other hand are the one who need to understand everything before you will believe anything. It is YOU who posted:

[It is just my nature to put more faith inthat which can be logically explained] and: [As for the creation of the universe, I simply choose to recognise that which is proveable.]

You claim that I need an answer for everything but you put in writing that you refuse to believe anything unless it’s provable. Who is the one who needs to have answers?

RH - Yet you will be held accountable for your actions during your life when you die, according to your beliefs. I do not believe so. Perhaps I could have put it in better wrods but that was my point. Also, I do not have to have an answer for everything. I have faith in that the universe will continue working tomorrow even though I do not understand it's mechanics.
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RH - [I am wise enough to know that humans do not know everything.]

Husband - Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. You have none (fear of God or wisdom)

RH - And insults during an intellectual debate and both childish and asinine. Come back when you gain some maturing.
 

Z Man

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Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Rational Human
Evolution is only impossible without a "creator" if you are of the mind frame that first there was nothing. I mean really nothing. No hydrogen, no ozygen, no arsenic.

From the creationist POV there was a time when there was just a void, no periodic table of elements. Nothing.

From the evolutionist pov there were always elements, just in a random, chaotic space.
Ponder this Rational Human; how can all those simple chaotic elements create what we see today? It goes against every logic known to man. Everything on the planet, whether living or not, always deteriates over time. Cars, buildings, plants, animals, humans, everything. To create life takes life, and to create any other things, such as cars, buildings, etc. and to upkeep them so they will not deteriote and become desolate takes the energy of life. How can simple elements that have the tendency to make itself simpler, become complex on it's own? There is nothing in this world that can become complex on it's own without the aid of life, or can create life from something non-living. The only people who uphold such irrational ideas are the ones who apparantly have something against God, i.e. you and Skeptic and Gerald....

*an evolutionists way of thinking* ---- "Oh look! A rock! One day, if given a couple billion years to play with itself, that nice rock will turn into a living being!"

:chuckle:
 
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Rational Human

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Z Man
Ponder this Rational Human; how can all those simple chaotic elements create what we see today? It goes against every logic known to man. Everything on the planet, whether living or not, always deteriates over time. Cars, buildings, plants, animals, humans, everything. To create life takes life, and to create any other things, such as cars, buildings, etc. and to upkeep them so they will not deteriote and become desolate takes the energy of life. How can simple elements that have the tendency to make itself simpler, become complex on it's own? There is nothing in this world that can become complex on it's own without the aid of life, or can create life from something non-living. The only people who uphold such irrational ideas are the ones who apparantly have something against God, i.e. you and Skeptic and Gerald....

Zman, learn some essential chemistry. Slam two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom and you get a single molecule of water. I've done it my self in school. It in no way goes against every logic known to man kind. If anything, it is the essentil building blocks of life.

Zman, how does a single sperm and an egg become a human being comprised of billions and billions of cells? God just puts them there?

Again, entrophy does not work in this argument Zman and you are just not listening. It's as simple as that. I have posted numerous articles that complete counter your bovious limited understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you wish to continue from your side with a lack of understanding of what you are attempting to use as your defense, fine, but do not expect me to answer much more.

You are talking about cars and buildings and other things, with the exception of plants that exist outside of the world of nature. All those things are built by men so of course you choose to use them as your argument in order to cloud the issue.

Originally posted by Z man
There is nothing in this world that can become complex on it's own without the aid of life, or can create life from something non-living.

This simple comment clearly demonstrtes that you have zero clue as to what you are talking about. If this were ture Z man, then the Hindenburg would have never burnt.

Hydrogen atoms have such a great inherent tendency to form strong bonds with oxygen and form water that a small energy of activation, in the form of a spark affecting only a relatively few molecules, causes the two substances to start to react, resulting in an enormous evolution of energy. This is exactly as the second law predicts: some of the energy in hydrogen and oxygen tends to be spread out when the lesser-energetic water is formed. Yet, water is more complex than the simple elements and its atoms are arranged in an exact geometric pattern.

Maybe if I link to this article again you will actually read it and learn something this time.

The second law of thermodynamics and evolution

*an evolutionists way of thinking* ---- "Oh look! A rock! One day, if given a couple billion years to play with itself, that nice rock will turn into a living being!"
:bannana: :chuckle: :shut: :kookoo:

This is just about the stupidest thing an creationsist has ever said to me, with the obvious exception of "god created everything".
 

Skeptic

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Z Man
The only people who uphold such irrational ideas are the ones who apparantly have something against God, i.e. you and Skeptic and Gerald....
I have nothing against God. How can I have something against an entity that probably does not exist? :kookoo:
 

Z Man

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Rational Human
Zman, learn some essential chemistry.
You're not the only person on this planet who knows chemistry. I am in college, if you did not know, and I have taken chemistry along with biology. My knowledge in this area of science may not be as high as some scientist, or even you, but I get the gist of what is explained in evolution/natural selection/chemical bonding and reactions, etc. etc. So to get to the point, I know chemistry. What you really meant to say was, "Zman, learn my essential point of view, because it is better than yours", which is something logic will not allow me to do...
Slam two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom and you get a single molecule of water. I've done it my self in school. It in no way goes against every logic known to man kind. If anything, it is the essentil building blocks of life.
Hydrogen atoms have such a great inherent tendency to form strong bonds with oxygen and form water that a small energy of activation, in the form of a spark affecting only a relatively few molecules, causes the two substances to start to react, resulting in an enormous evolution of energy. This is exactly as the second law predicts: some of the energy in hydrogen and oxygen tends to be spread out when the lesser-energetic water is formed. Yet, water is more complex than the simple elements and its atoms are arranged in an exact geometric pattern.
That's it huh? Just slam two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom together, and then *BAM*, you have life! That really took a lot of thought... It takes the right kind of enviroment to create water, the type of enviroment that just did not exist at the very early stages of evolution. Also, to create water takes energy, and your little paragraph on the creation of water says itself, "Hydrogen atoms have such a great inherent tendency to form strong bonds with oxygen and form water that a small energy of activation, in the form of a spark affecting only a relatively few molecules". Where does the energy to create the spark come from? What created the molecules that make the energy to create water? Again, it is illogical to conclude that life evolved from simple matter. Life must come from life; a rock, or water, or any other type of non-living matter in that case, can never create life. It's impossible.

Your blatant denial of pure logic to promote the theory of evolution shows just how rational you really are.
Zman, how does a single sperm and an egg become a human being comprised of billions and billions of cells? God just puts them there?
What? God just puts what where?

If you are questioning my knowledge in reguards to biology. then this is childish. I don't want to get into a "I know more about biology and chemistry than you do" debate. I just simply want you to understand the irrationality of the theory of evolution. Apply some basic logic, and you'll come to agree that there must be some sort of supernatural Designer/Creator for life to have come into existence...
Again, entrophy does not work in this argument Zman and you are just not listening. It's as simple as that.
You have yet to prove me wrong.
You are talking about cars and buildings and other things, with the exception of plants that exist outside of the world of nature. All those things are built by men so of course you choose to use them as your argument in order to cloud the issue.
All those things are built by men.... Exactly my point! How much greater of a designer/creator do you think it takes to create life? Show me an example of life creating itself from non-organic, or living matter, and I'll believe in evolution. Show me anything on this planet that upkeeps itself, or manages to create itself better and better over time, and is not alive, and I'll believe in evolution.

Can't? Hmmm... better rethink your whole idea about life....
*an evolutionists way of thinking* ---- "Oh look! A rock! One day, if given a couple billion years to play with itself, that nice rock will turn into a living being!"
This is just about the stupidest thing an creationsist has ever said to me...
Well, I learned that from my biology teacher...
 

Z Man

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Skeptic
I have nothing against God. How can I have something against an entity that probably does not exist? :kookoo:
Probably? Sounds like doubt to me... Don't you think that finding out about God would be the most important research of your life? You should really try to eliminate that "probably" in your statement. A good place to start would be at your local church...
 

Rational Human

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Z man: You're not the only person on this planet who knows chemistry. I am in college, if you did not know, and I have taken chemistry along with biology. My knowledge in this area of science may not be as high as some scientist, or even you, but I get the gist of what is explained in evolution/natural selection/chemical bonding and reactions, etc. etc. So to get to the point, I know chemistry. What you really meant to say was, "Zman, learn my essential point of view, because it is better than yours", which is something logic will not allow me to do...

RH: Now add physics and you just might have a chance at understanding evolution.
------------------------------
Z man: That's it huh? Just slam two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom together, and then *BAM*, you have life! That really took a lot of thought... It takes the right kind of enviroment to create water, the type of enviroment that just did not exist at the very early stages of evolution. Also, to create water takes energy, and your little paragraph on the creation of water says itself, "Hydrogen atoms have such a great inherent tendency to form strong bonds with oxygen and form water that a small energy of activation, in the form of a spark affecting only a relatively few molecules". Where does the energy to create the spark come from? What created the molecules that make the energy to create water? Again, it is illogical to conclude that life evolved from simple matter. Life must come from life; a rock, or water, or any other type of non-living matter in that case, can never create life. It's impossible.

RH: Z, what is movement? Is it not KINETIC ENERGY? When you are driving in a car and it slams into a wall and stop do you just stop as well or do you not continue flying on ahead?

As for what created the molecules, that is where our opinions differ. I believe that they have been here forever, you believe that a mythical entity created them.
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Z man: What? God just puts what where?

If you are questioning my knowledge in reguards to biology. then this is childish. I don't want to get into a "I know more about biology and chemistry than you do" debate. I just simply want you to understand the irrationality of the theory of evolution. Apply some basic logic, and you'll come to agree that there must be some sort of supernatural Designer/Creator for life to have come into existence...

RH: Nice Dodge. My comment was how does a single male sperm and a single femal egg grow into a multi-celled organism called a child.

Your argument is that entrophy states that everything slows down and order falls to chaos [which is entirely wrong but I'll aloow it] If this is so, what causes the sperm and the egg, two tiny things to grow into a comparatively enormous infant?
-----------------------------------------
Z Man: Show me an example of life creating itself from non-organic, or living matter, and I'll believe in evolution. Show me anything on this planet that upkeeps itself, or manages to create itself better and better over time, and is not alive, and I'll believe in evolution.

Can't? Hmmm... better rethink your whole idea about life....

RH: This is a bs challenge and you know it. I have never said that life comes from inanimate materials. It has always been you to put that issue forth in an attempt to cloud the issue.

What I have said is that life evolved from the very building blocks of the stars and planets. The periodic table of elements. The only difference between you and I is that you believe in a mythical creature starting the whole shebang and you do not.

Z man, and I have said this ad nauseum in this thread alone. I am not here to convert anyone. I am merely here to present my views and listen to others. Now, this conversation has gone around in the same circle so many times that I am getting dizzy.

So, for the last time and for everyone in the cheap seats:

I BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION!
 

Rational Human

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Z Man
Probably? Sounds like doubt to me... Don't you think that finding out about God would be the most important research of your life? You should really try to eliminate that "probably" in your statement. A good place to start would be at your local church...

The only way to remove that probably would be to die and see what happens.

Z man, send us your final research notes, okay?
 

Delmar

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was there not a cause?

Originally posted by Rational Human
The only way to remove that probably would be to die and see what happens.

Z man, send us your final research notes, okay?

I'd be glad to send you mine but I doubt if you can send mail from heaven to the 7734 Zip code
 

Skeptic

New member
Originally posted by Z Man
Probably? Sounds like doubt to me... Don't you think that finding out about God would be the most important research of your life? You should really try to eliminate that "probably" in your statement. A good place to start would be at your local church...
I am not really a hard-core atheist. I am an agnostic. Agnosticism is what one might expect from a skeptic. I believe there is a remote possibility that some kind of God exists (it is even more remote that this God is the one described in the Bible). The reason why this possibility is so remote is because we have no empirical evidence for the existence of such an entity. Furthermore, there is no good reason to postulate the the existence of God. One could devise any number of wildly speculative supernatural explanations for the origin of the universe and life. But, without empirical evidence, all of those speculations remain highly remote possibilities. The more nonsensical the possibility (e.g. the God of the Bible), the more remote this possibility becomes.

Being the skeptic that I am, I believe certainties are dangerous. My personal motto has been: Always allow for the possibility you are wrong, especially when you are certain you are right. This is the general approach of science. The scientific method eventually forces us to consider the possibility that we are deluding ourselves. Faith encourages us to IGNORE this possibility. For this reason, faith is never a virtue.

Here are some links I used to have in my tOL signature about Creationism and why science is naturalistic, about the search for the origin of life (it's an area of active study), and the Evidence for Evolution and Common Descent.

Until you carefully review what evolutionists really say (rather than the cartoon version spewed out be most creationists), you should at least keep an open mind regarding the possibility that evolution is a reality.

Yes, I've read and studied the Bible, as well as other religious texts of other religions (have you?), and I continue to find the highly speculative theories contained in those texts very remote (and nonsensical) possibilities.
 

Rational Human

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I would have to agree with Skeptic but only for one specific reason.

My current lack of totally understanding the evolutionary theory.

I will not deny that Z man has a good question in asking where the first bit of energy came from to get the whole ball rolling.

Unfortunately, believing that god was the impetuous for the energy is that last selection on my list.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Rational Human
Z, what is movement? Is it not KINETIC ENERGY?
If I understand you correctly, you are implying that kinetic energy of molecules is what started evolution. So, life exists because a bunch of elements keep banging into each other? And life is nothing more than a bunch of molecules interacting with each other because of kinetic energy?!?! How irrational is that! And how demeaning of a definition you give life! Life is so much more than a bunch of chemical processes. Life, and the concious, rational mind, is one of the numerous Achelles Heel of evolution...
Nice Dodge. My comment was how does a single male sperm and a single femal egg grow into a multi-celled organism called a child.

Your argument is that entrophy states that everything slows down and order falls to chaos [which is entirely wrong but I'll aloow it] If this is so, what causes the sperm and the egg, two tiny things to grow into a comparatively enormous infant?
Mitosis. But mitosis only happens in living things.

It takes life to produce life; I've never witnessed, and no one on this planet will ever find evidence of anything coming to life from non-living matter.
I have never said that life comes from inanimate materials.....What I have said is that life evolved from the very building blocks of the stars and planets. The periodic table of elements.
So you believe that the stars and planets and elements are living organisms? :confused:
Z man, and I have said this ad nauseum in this thread alone. I am not here to convert anyone.
Neither am I. I just want you to think about how irrational and illogical the theory of evolution really is.
I BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION!
Are you sure about that? It is just a "theory"...
I will not deny that Z man has a good question in asking where the first bit of energy came from to get the whole ball rolling.
Not only is that a problem with evolution, but so is the fact that life cannot be produced from non-living matter. It's impossible. Evolution can never explain how life arose or was created, or when conciousness came into existence, or account for life being rational and able to experience emotions. How did stars, planets, and elements create life from non-living matter? It's impossible. That's why Evolution is illogical and irrational. It's plain out ridiculus, unless God was involved. Since He is a living Being, He is the perfect compliment to what scientists have found out about evolution and life thus far. He's the missing piece of the evolution puzzle that modern scientists refuse to acknowledge. God is the only explanation to why life exists; why humans are rational, able to experience emotions, and bear conciousness. He is the Life that created life.
 
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Z Man

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Originally posted by Skeptic
I believe there is a remote possibility that some kind of God exists (it is even more remote that this God is the one described in the Bible).
Why is that?
The scientific method eventually forces us to consider the possibility that we are deluding ourselves. Faith encourages us to IGNORE this possibility. For this reason, faith is never a virtue.
What's the risk of believing that God will forgive you of your mistakes?
Until you carefully review what evolutionists really say (rather than the cartoon version spewed out be most creationists), you should at least keep an open mind regarding the possibility that evolution is a reality.
I've studied it, and I do have an open mind. I don't rule out the possibility that evolution occured. But there is no way evolution could have happened without the help of Life/God. Also, I don't believe in macro-evolution - that a fish can turn into an elephant - but rather I do believe in micro-evolution. But that's another topic I really don't want to get into right now.

I have thought about and have done research on evolution, and I cannot concieve, nor is it logically possible for life to evolve from non-living, inanimate choatic molecules. Life can only be created by life. It's a known fact. It's ironic how evolution goes against that truth, yet science is all about finding out the facts...
Yes, I've read and studied the Bible, as well as other religious texts of other religions (have you?), and I continue to find the highly speculative theories contained in those texts very remote (and nonsensical) possibilities.
Instead of trying to disprove the existence of God, why don't you try and prove His existence. You might be surprised at what you discover...
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z Man
If I understand you correctly, you are implying that kinetic energy of molecules is what started evolution. So, life exists because a bunch of elements keep banging into each other? And life is nothing more than a bunch of molecules interacting with each other because of kinetic energy?!?! How irrational is that! And how demeaning of a definition you give life! Life is so much more than a bunch of chemical processes. Life, and the concious, rational mind, is one of the numerous Achelles Heel of evolution...

ROFLMMFAO!

All life is, is the interaction of nucleotides and nucleic acids. Deoxyribose in DNA, and ribose in RNA, a phosphate group and one of four different nitrogen-containing bases. In DNA, the bases are adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine. In RNA, uracil substitutes for thymine. Protein is also part of this mixture we call life. None of these are "living" elements yet that is what we are made up from and that is what our last common ancestor was made of.

Now, this last common ancestor had specific traits. Those traits were the possession of genetic information - that is, inheritable instructions for functioning and reproducing and secondly, the means to replicate and carry out those instructions. Otherwise it would have left no descendants. Also, its system for replicating its genetic material had to allow for some random variation in the heritable characteristics of the offspring so that new traits could be selected and lead to the creation of diverse species.


Mitosis. But mitosis only happens in living things.

It takes life to produce life; I've never witnessed, and no one on this planet will ever find evidence of anything coming to life from non-living matter.

So you believe that the stars and planets and elements are living organisms? :confused:

Neither am I. I just want you to think about how irrational and illogical the theory of evolution really is.

Are you sure about that? It is just a "theory"...

Not only is that a problem with evolution, but so is the fact that life cannot be produced from non-living matter. It's impossible. Evolution can never explain how life arose or was created, or when conciousness came into existence, or account for life being rational and able to experience emotions. How did stars, planets, and elements create life from non-living matter? It's impossible. That's why Evolution is illogical and irrational. It's plain out ridiculus, unless God was involved. Since He is a living Being, He is the perfect compliment to what scientists have found out about evolution and life thus far. He's the missing piece of the evolution puzzle that modern scientists refuse to acknowledge. God is the only explanation to why life exists; why humans are rational, able to experience emotions, and bear conciousness. He is the Life that created life. [/QUOTE]
 

Rational Human

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Originally posted by Z man

If I understand you correctly, you are implying that kinetic energy of molecules is what started evolution. So, life exists because a bunch of elements keep banging into each other? And life is nothing more than a bunch of molecules interacting with each other because of kinetic energy?!?! How irrational is that! And how demeaning of a definition you give life! Life is so much more than a bunch of chemical processes. Life, and the concious, rational mind, is one of the numerous Achelles Heel of evolution...
ROFLMMFAO!

All life is, is the interaction of nucleotides and nucleic acids. Deoxyribose in DNA, and ribose in RNA, a phosphate group and one of four different nitrogen-containing bases. In DNA, the bases are adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine. In RNA, uracil substitutes for thymine. Protein is also part of this mixture we call life. None of these are "living" elements yet that is what we are made up from and that is what our last common ancestor was made of.

Now, this last common ancestor had specific traits. Those traits were the possession of genetic information - that is, inheritable instructions for functioning and reproducing and secondly, the means to replicate and carry out those instructions. Otherwise it would have left no descendants. Also, its system for replicating its genetic material had to allow for some random variation in the heritable characteristics of the offspring so that new traits could be selected and lead to the creation of diverse species.

So really, three traits if you will.
1 - genetic information in the form of three chemical sequences.
2 - A system for reproducing that genetic material.
3 - the ability to allow for random varition for the development of new traits.

Now, as the environment changes this is where micro-evolution came in. New generations would develop tools or skills [on the single cell level of course] that would give them greater success in being able to reproduce. Their subsequent generations would also be gifted with these adaptations.

Now, what cause the first nucleic acids, and proteins and other required chemicals to form together.

Knowing full well the howls of outrage I will get for saying this I post my answer here.

Luck.

Out of billions and billions of possible combinations they got put together in just the right amount and at just the right time.

If you want to chalk that luck up to god then I will concede that point to you. Fine. And who knows, maybe that was god. But I also believe that his involvement ended right there.


Mitosis. But mitosis only happens in living things.
But where do the cells get the needed mass for mitosis? This is an example of something very simple becoming something very complex which is the challenge you put before me.

It takes life to produce life; I've never witnessed, and no one on this planet will ever find evidence of anything coming to life from non-living matter.

Good, because the concept of Abiogenesis went the way of the dodo a long time ago and it no where near what evolutionists believe.

So you believe that the stars and planets and elements are living organisms? :confused:
Again, clouding the issue. All I said is that we are made of the same stuff as stars. And who are we to decide if stars are concious or not? Perhaps they are and we are just to ignorant to understand them.

Neither am I. I just want you to think about how irrational and illogical the theory of evolution really is.
No more irrational and illogical than believing that some all powerful, mythical, invisible entity merely spoke and everything was created. This is especially imlausible since the very account of creation is contradicted in the Bible.

One section says that god created man than animals then another states that god first made animals and then man.

Are you sure about that? It is just a "theory"...
So is god.

Not only is that a problem with evolution, but so is the fact that life cannot be produced from non-living matter. It's impossible. Evolution can never explain how life arose or was created, or when conciousness came into existence, or account for life being rational and able to experience emotions. How did stars, planets, and elements create life from non-living matter? It's impossible. That's why Evolution is illogical and irrational. It's plain out ridiculus, unless God was involved. Since He is a living Being, He is the perfect compliment to what scientists have found out about evolution and life thus far. He's the missing piece of the evolution puzzle that modern scientists refuse to acknowledge. God is the only explanation to why life exists; why humans are rational, able to experience emotions, and bear conciousness. He is the Life that created life.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm. Let see what other "theory's" have been labeled illogical and irrational and even heretical.

That world is not the center of the universe.
That the world is not flat.
Flight.
That the sound barrier would never be broken.
That man would never be able to harness the power of the atom.

As I said earlier, if you want to call the little think that gave the first push god, so be it. I certainly cannot stop you. But to blankly say that evolution could never happen is just ludicrious.


oops. post not ready. editing
 
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Husband&Father

New member
Either / Or NOT Both / And

Either / Or NOT Both / And

[…Your opinion that god exists is true to you but false to me whereas by disbelief in god is true to me but wrong to you. I cannot explain it any clearer than that.]

I understand that we have contradictory beliefs. Trust me I get it. My point is that one of us is wrong! I know we each hold opposite views and may hold them as deeply. I know we both strongly believe what we believe. I know that we will conduct our lives in accordance with those beliefs. (Our beliefs are "true" to us) But in the end only one of our truths is REALLY true. God exists…or he doesn’t. We have an either / or situation here.

[…insults during an intellectual debate and both childish and asinine.]

I do apologize for personalizing my remark. Let me restate my view in a general way.
I believe that acknowledging God is THE fundamental element in wisdom. I believe that disavowing God is actually counterintuitive. (Belief in God is natural, one must go out of ones way to not believe) So, it follows, people who do not believe in god are making the decision (to not believe) against their own better judgment. This strikes me as very un-wise. The first step in wisdom is to acknowledge what you already know is true. Thus:
Fear (respect) for God is the beginning of wisdom.

For instance, we all know that in physics nothing is annihilated or created. All Science 101 students get this on the first day of class. Matter changes forms, but never disappears and something can not come from nothing. We all know this and would know it intuitively even if we were not taught it is college. It’s natural law. Yet the universe is here and it had a beginning. The question of how the universe came into being CAN NOT be answered by natural law because in nature NOTHING IS CREATED. The answer to the question of the origin of the universe is a super natural answer. We all know it…all atheists know it, all Christians know it and all skeptics know it. Yet the atheists can not abide the super-natural. All things must have a natural explanation because super-natural = God. So the atheist will make themselves look foolish by making up natural explanations for supernatural events. It can not work. They come up with strange theories that involve all kinds of crazy possibilities such-as parallel universes and spontaneous transformations of nothing into everything. They claim that somehow (from nothing) a molecule of hydrogen happened and that there was a "big bang" and evolution started happening and now we have everything.

It is utter foolishness because the entire starting premise is wrong.

You have to start correctly (Respect God) to have any chance at being wise. One who has no respect for God can not have wisdom.
 

Husband&Father

New member
Egg on darwins face

Egg on darwins face

The very first living organism had to have the ability and the "will" or drive to reproduce itself.
Reproduction of even the simplest cell is INCREDIBLY complex. But evolution holds that the first living thing was INCREDIBLY simple. What gives?

Did it "evolve" the ability to reproduce before it was alive, or did it begin living and then realize that it needed a reproduction system. How many generations would it take to evolve a reproduction system in an organism that had none? Oh yeah…organisms without reproductive systems don’t have generations…

Evolution fails under even the most crude scrutiny.

Imagine the surprise of the first animal to lay an egg. The process of laying an egg evolved over millions and millions of years. The generation before the first fully formed egg was born in a half an egg or was born covered in egg yoke but without a shell…
 

Rational Human

BANNED BY MOD
Banned by Mod
Re: Egg on darwins face

Re: Egg on darwins face

Originally posted by Husband&Father
The very first living organism had to have the ability and the "will" or drive to reproduce itself.
Reproduction of even the simplest cell is INCREDIBLY complex. But evolution holds that the first living thing was INCREDIBLY simple. What gives?

Did it "evolve" the ability to reproduce before it was alive, or did it begin living and then realize that it needed a reproduction system. How many generations would it take to evolve a reproduction system in an organism that had none? Oh yeah…organisms without reproductive systems don’t have generations…

Evolution fails under even the most crude scrutiny.

Imagine the surprise of the first animal to lay an egg. The process of laying an egg evolved over millions and millions of years. The generation before the first fully formed egg was born in a half an egg or was born covered in egg yoke but without a shell…

Okay, I was wrong. This is the stupidest thing a theist has ever said.

Did I say that the ability to lay eggs was generated over many generations?

No, it's either there or it isn't. And we know that the process is continuing because micro-evolution is still continuing.

Just so you know Father, your evolution did not end with you growing a thumb.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Rational Human
ROFLMMFAO!

All life is, is the interaction of nucleotides and nucleic acids.
Wow. Glad you could sum it all up for me. It's nice to know that the people I love are nothing more than a bunch of chaotic molecules that create chemical reactions. I think I'll go kill myself now. Better yet, I'll go kill everyone I dislike first. That way, I'll be doing the world a favor by eliminating the bad genes of society....
Now, what cause the first nucleic acids, and proteins and other required chemicals to form together.

Knowing full well the howls of outrage I will get for saying this I post my answer here.

Luck.
Well if you believe that, then you should have no problem with someone telling you that the last time they flew on a 747, they discovered it was created soley by a tornado that had gone through a junkyard, and by chance, created the massive 747 all in working order!

You won't believe in God, but you'll believe in luck? How irrational...
If you want to chalk that luck up to god then I will concede that point to you. Fine. And who knows, maybe that was god. But I also believe that his involvement ended right there.
I think this statement by you is probably the whole arguement right here. This is the main point; the most important reason why all evolutionists don't want to believe in God.

You said, "I believe that [God's] involvement [with evolution] ended right there". To me, that implies that you believe if God exists, He doesn't intefer or have any type of relationship with His creation today. At the bottom of it all, you simply have a hatred toward God. How come He doesn't do anything about all the wrong in the world today? How can He let little children die, or things go bad?

I've talked with tons of atheists and it seems when you get to the bottom of it, they all have some sort of hidden hatred toward God; they question His existence because they may have had a tragical event take place in their own lives. I'd say about 99% of the people I run into who don't want to believe in God are hiding their real emotions about God, and try covering it up by saying He doesn't exist...
But where do the cells get the needed mass for mitosis? This is an example of something very simple becoming something very complex which is the challenge you put before me.
So that's your answer to my challenge? That's an extremely weak answer. First off, the cell created by the fertilization of the egg and sperm is everything but simple. You have so many complex chemical processes happening in the cell alone, not to mention the many organelles that exist, all making them happen. The DNA, RNA, chromosomes, proteins, lipids, nucleus, mitochondria, membrane, and on and on, are all very complex themselves. A mature human is very complex, but so is one simple cell. So, you did not answer my challenge.
Again, clouding the issue. All I said is that we are made of the same stuff as stars. And who are we to decide if stars are concious or not? Perhaps they are and we are just to ignorant to understand them.
Are you serious? Dude, you need a new name besides "Rational Human".... :nono:
No more irrational and illogical than believing that some all powerful, mythical, invisible entity merely spoke and everything was created.
Tell me which is more rational:

Nothing created life

or

Life created life
This is especially imlausible since the very account of creation is contradicted in the Bible.

One section says that god created man than animals then another states that god first made animals and then man.
Show me.
Not only is that a problem with evolution, but so is the fact that life cannot be produced from non-living matter. It's impossible. Evolution can never explain how life arose or was created, or when conciousness came into existence, or account for life being rational and able to experience emotions. How did stars, planets, and elements create life from non-living matter? It's impossible. That's why Evolution is illogical and irrational. It's plain out ridiculus, unless God was involved. Since He is a living Being, He is the perfect compliment to what scientists have found out about evolution and life thus far. He's the missing piece of the evolution puzzle that modern scientists refuse to acknowledge. God is the only explanation to why life exists; why humans are rational, able to experience emotions, and bear conciousness. He is the Life that created life.
Hmmmm. Let see what other "theory's" have been labeled illogical and irrational and even heretical.

That world is not the center of the universe.
That the world is not flat.
Flight.
That the sound barrier would never be broken.
That man would never be able to harness the power of the atom.

As I said earlier, if you want to call the little think that gave the first push god, so be it. I certainly cannot stop you. But to blankly say that evolution could never happen is just ludicrious.
All those "theories" that you gave examples for are pointless in this discussion; they had no effect on the belief of the existence of God. This does. It flies in the face of life itself, declaring that we are nothing more than a bunch of chaotic molecules running around making chemical processes all day... How demeaning. The very essence of life is sucked dry by the theory of evolution. No wonder no one cares anymore. What's the point? Evolution destroys reason, and a life without reason has no meaning...

BTW, I'm not arguing that evolution itself didn't happen, or could not of happened; I'm arguing that it would have been impossible for anything to happen without God.
 
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