The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[ThePresbyteers]

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[freelight]

wonders all around......

wonders all around......

I bought a book on string theory and forth dimension and never got past chapter two. My mind never was conditioned to read that stuff.

Ahhhhhh,.....some of us love the stuff! Thats cool,....we each are unique individuals, with diverse and stratified personalities. I'll hold off on the trans-warp metaphysics perhaps....just a tad.

The subject of space and time in itself is wonderful, - the Papers have some interesting stuff on that too, after all....space and time in this dimension is integral to this conditional existence, and how consciousness interfaces thru it, making for the entire process of life, information, evolution, creation, relativity, experience. Life is a process of experience. When we strip everything down to its essential elements, down to the 'ultimaton', ....all there is, is energy.....transfused with consciousness. There is that which is undefined, unknown, invisible, potential, latent......then that which is defined, known, visible, actual, emerging. Reality includes both shadow and light, infinite and finite, eternal and temporal,...toss in all other dualities too as a 'play of perception'.

Its a wonderful world we live in eh?......



pj

 

[Stuu]

Sigh......., Stuu,

• The Solar system was considered as such by the revelators when the plants began to form from the material that was disgorged from the Sun. The sun was basically alone prior to that. It would have just been a Solar and not a Solar System.

• The book says 4.5 billion years, you are flat wrong.


Caino

In that case it is still wrong.

Stuart

 

[One Truth]

* Jesus didn’t say he was God the Father manifest in the flesh, he said he was "the Son of God" Divine yes, but he wasn’t the Father himself, rather Jesus was unified with the Father.


........pointless to go on, Aimiel is a typical pig headed Christian who is just as stubborn and self righteous as the people who killed Jesus.

Caino

Caino: I know we are both readers and studiers of The Urantia Book, but I beg to differ with you on your point:

182:1.9 The Master, during the course of this final prayer with his apostles, alluded to the fact that he had manifested the Father's name to the world. And that is truly what he did by the revelation of God through his perfected life in the flesh. The Father in heaven had sought to reveal himself to Moses, but he could proceed no further than to cause it to be said, " I AM. " And when pressed for further revelation of himself, it was only disclosed, " I AM that I AM. " But when Jesus had finished his earth life, this name of the Father had been so revealed that the Master, who was the Father incarnate, could truly say:

Jesus was certainly the Father incarnate which means "manifest in the flesh". He was more than just "unified with the Father". He was the Father incarnate.

Also, freelight, thanks for the warning, but because so many have responded to Aimiel with a lot of sarcasm and name-calling, I would like to approach him without any of that. Since he has not answered my questions, possibly I may have touched his fear or something I said may ring true to him. Who knows. He will know the Truth and the Truth will set him free.

Thanks, again.

 

[Aimiel]

Fear? :chuckle:

I laugh at fear: "Ha-ha-ha-ha."

I fear The Lord. Men, imaginary gods, demons, spells, economic forecasts, weather forecasts and even juvenile zealots with box-cutter knives hijacking airplanes cannot frighten me.

I don't know what questions I've left un-answered that you're referring to. All you have to do is ask.

 

[One Truth]

Fear? :chuckle:

I laugh at fear: "Ha-ha-ha-ha."

I fear The Lord. Men, imaginary gods, demons, spells, economic forecasts, weather forecasts and even juvenile zealots with box-cutter knives hijacking airplanes cannot frighten me.

I don't know what questions I've left un-answered that you're referring to. All you have to do is ask.

Aimiel:

Apparently you do not read my posts. I have asked twice the same questions. I am highlighing my questions so you don't miss them.

What is the Kingdom of God and where is it?
What is it that we “see?”
What does it mean to “be born again”, “born of the spirit?”
What is your experience? How do you know you are "born again?"

I would add: why do you "fear" God? Would it not be better to know Him personally and to know His love?

You said a personal, experiential relationship with God is “hogwash”. I wonder, why would you say this since this is what it is all about? Your personal relationship, experience with God should be the most important, the most desired thing in your life, yet you call it "hogwash" and call yourself a Christian, as well. You say the personal experience (firsthand experience) of finding and knowing God is “hogwash.” How would you suggest one knows or finds God other than firsthand?

I also asked that you name some of the “demonic doctrines” that you insist are in The Urantia Book.

I would also like to know why you believe that The Urantia Book leads one away from God?

I believe I also asked, have you actually read The Urantia Book in it's entirety?

I have other questions, but I will give you the opportunity to answer these few first.

Thank you.

 

[freelight]

understandings differences within cosmology.....

understandings differences within cosmology.....

Jesus was certainly the Father incarnate which means "manifest in the flesh". He was more than just "unified with the Father". He was the Father incarnate.

Yes,...but the UB presents a different heirarchy of sorts between the Paradise Trinity and all subordinate divine Sons that descend down or extend out from the First Source and Center, - also Jesus is a Creator Son, and is not the Eternal Son within the Original Paradise Trinity itself, yet the Creator Sons are so divine as to be 'God' to each of their created universes and their inhabitants, as well as having gone thru the bestowals or 'incarnations' on the matterial worlds of their domains. So they specially share the divine and mortal natures in such 'bestowals'.

For Traditional Christians reading, see Dr. Meredith J. Sprunger's article:

UB Deviations From Traditional Christian Doctrine

Also, freelight, thanks for the warning, but because so many have responded to Aimiel with a lot of sarcasm and name-calling, I would like to approach him without any of that.

I guess you get back what you give out
Great,...and good luck with that endeavor.........

Since he has not answered my questions, possibly I may have touched his fear or something I said may ring true to him. Who knows. He will know the Truth and the Truth will set him free.

Thanks, again.

Ignorance or a possible misperception(mistake) doesn't like to be exposed, especially if one has already expended so much energy to denigrate and demonize something. To admit that there might be some truth, wisdom and light in the Papers would be to demolish his whole position, the position of his religious ego would be challenged, rendered invalid. Imagine how devestating that would be.

Sure,...truth liberates, wherever truth is accepted, embraced, realized, received....as 'living knowledge',...made alive in Spirit. It is so beyond the various wrappings of our religious concepts, beliefs, ideas...and at the heart of reality itself, existing here and Now, in our midst. Such is the kingdom.........



pj

 

[One Truth]

Ignorance or a possible misperception(mistake) doesn't like to be exposed, especially if one has already expended so much energy to denigrate and demonize something. To admit that there might be some truth, wisdom and light in the Papers would be to demolish his whole position, the position of his religious ego would be challenged, rendered invalid. Imagine how devestating that would be.

Absolutely. But, in the great odds that he might find humility and admit his fear and acknowledge his ignorance, then I shall give him that opportunity.

Considering that The Universal Father has "downstepped" Himself (not just His authority) I would say that when The Urantia Book says that Jesus was the incarnation of the Father then that is truly what it means; Jesus was the manifestation of the Father in the flesh. We are all part of the Father. Nothing exists without Him. If you have seen a Creator Son, you have seen the Father. Let's don't try to analyze it, just accept that the "mystery" of the Father manifesting in the flesh is a truth and He desires to manifest in and through us as well. He indeed dwells within us as the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

Sometimes people become sarcastic in back and forth "arguments" such as what we find on forums, because they are unable to present what they believe in a civil tone due to their insecurities and fears. They also feel the need to convince someone else of their mistaken views because they are not really convinced of their own views and fear they may be "wrong". This, of course, is an unconscious reaction manifesting in immature sarcasm. But that's OK... it isn't necessarily keeping them from the truth. What keeps them from receiving the truth is usually all the pre-conceived ideas that they fear to let go of. It's hard to let go of years and years of misconceptions. But once you do you can look back and see how narrow your view was and you move on.

Anyway, I don't intend to continue "arguing" for long. There is so much one can say and then you have to just let the Spirit of Truth reveal the truth within them. It's already there, they just have to open up.

 

[Aimiel]

What is the Kingdom of God and where is it?

The Kingdom is not of this world. The Kingdom is spiritual. Only The Holy Spirit can reveal The Kingdom to you, and only if you're born again.

What is it that we “see?”

I cannot tell you. The natural man cannot comprehend His Kingdom.

What does it mean to “be born again”, “born of the spirit?”

To come into communion or relationship with The Holy Spirit, through a saving faith in Jesus, Who is Christ. He changes your very nature. Not only do you believe His Word more, but you come to understand His Word more easily, have a heart for His lambs and begin to desire sin less and less every day.

What is your experience?

I've been born again, and have His Spirit residing in me.

How do you know you are "born again?"

It's a personal relationship with The Lord. I know Him in Whom I have believed. The hatred and selfishness that used to lead me around by the nose is gone.

I would add: why do you "fear" God?

Because He is terrible.

Would it not be better to know Him personally and to know His love?

Those who become born again, come to know Him because of His Love. Those who mature, come to know that He is to be honored for His Holiness, adored because of His Love and feared, because of His vast Power.

You said a personal, experiential relationship with God is “hogwash”. I wonder, why would you say this since this is what it is all about? Your personal relationship, experience with God should be the most important, the most desired thing in your life, yet you call it "hogwash" and call yourself a Christian, as well. You say the personal experience (firsthand experience) of finding and knowing God is “hogwash.”

Um... NO!!! I didn't.... you said:

"The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity—the best of the religions of the twentieth century—is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers."

... to which I replied:

Hogwash. Those of us who are born again actually see The Kingdom, we don't have to merely hear words 'about' it from others.

How would you suggest one knows or finds God other than firsthand?

Reading His Word, praying, fellowshipping with other born again Christians, being under anointed preaching, teaching, prophecy and apostolic guidance. Not to belittle first-hand knowledge, through The Word of Prophecy, Who is Lord of all, but He inspired His Word to be written so that we could learn the Truth about life, through the lessons He designed into the lives of Biblical characters.

I also asked that you name some of the “demonic doctrines” that you insist are in The Urantia Book.

First and foremost: it was channeled by a demon. Second: it makes Christ into an angel, which He is not. He is God. Michael is His creation, not His brother.

Urantia Book, Paper 4, Page 59
Religious tradition is the imperfectly preserved record of the experiences of the God-knowing men of past ages, but such records are untrustworthy as guides for religious living or as the source of true information about the Universal Father. Such ancient beliefs have been invariably altered by the fact that primitive man was a mythmaker.

The Bible is the perfectly preserved record of God's Perfect Word to men. Belief in the demonic doctrine of the UB, instead of The Holy Bible is heresy.

The list goes on and on... but these are clearly opposed to Christianity, and not hand-in-hand with it, as some believe.

I would also like to know why you believe that The Urantia Book leads one away from God?

It 'seems' right, but isn't. It contains just enough 'truth' to convince a marginal Christian to believe it's from God, but exactly enough demonic doctrine to lead the maximum number of lambs astray from The Lord.

I believe I also asked, have you actually read The Urantia Book in it's entirety?

I have not, yet.

I have other questions, but I will give you the opportunity to answer these few first.

I welcome your inquiries. Yours and Freelight's presumptions regarding my beliefs are many, and I look forward to the chance to clear them up.

 

[freelight]

receptivity to Spirit's leading.................

receptivity to Spirit's leading.................

Absolutely. But, in the great odds that he might find humility and admit his fear and acknowledge his ignorance, then I shall give him that opportunity.

Considering that The Universal Father has "downstepped" Himself (not just His authority) I would say that when The Urantia Book says that Jesus was the incarnation of the Father then that is truly what it means; Jesus was the manifestation of the Father in the flesh. We are all part of the Father. Nothing exists without Him. If you have seen a Creator Son, you have seen the Father. Let's don't try to analyze it, just accept that the "mystery" of the Father manifesting in the flesh is a truth and He desires to manifest in and through us as well. He indeed dwells within us as the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

Indeed,....to behold the glory of the Son is to behold 'God'. Christ Michael is 'God' to us, as our Creator and Savior.... now reigning triumphant as Ascendent Lord, having gone thru his 7 bestowals, his final one on our planet. The UB gives however a greater cosmological view of 'original Deity' and the Paradise Trinity...and the heirarchy proceeding forth in the vast universe-systems and evolving worlds. Having a greater epochal revelation of cosmic reality can only enhance our appreciation and awe of Life, its eternal value and purpose.

Sometimes people become sarcastic in back and forth "arguments" such as what we find on forums, because they are unable to present what they believe in a civil tone due to their insecurities and fears. They also feel the need to convince someone else of their mistaken views because they are not really convinced of their own views and fear they may be "wrong". This, of course, is an unconscious reaction manifesting in immature sarcasm. But that's OK... it isn't necessarily keeping them from the truth. What keeps them from receiving the truth is usually all the pre-conceived ideas that they fear to let go of. It's hard to let go of years and years of misconceptions. But once you do you can look back and see how narrow your view was and you move on.

Courtesy ought always be the standard, even in disagreements, noting that all is just a sharing of various 'viewpoints'. One can share his beliefs, perspectives, opinions and viewpoints,...and accept them for being just that. Its only when one believes that his beliefs are 'absolute truth' that distortions and delusions incur.

Sharing the theology of the UB is just that, one can take aspects of it, accept it all or just leave it, all is open to research. Presumptions and preconceptions of course prevent any real honest investigations.
Even if the Papers are of human origin, but enhanced by some higher Mind or Insprational source within or without, their content, spiritual wisdom and cosmic insights hold their own value, and still....the entire theology is consistent thru-out.

Anyway, I don't intend to continue "arguing" for long. There is so much one can say and then you have to just let the Spirit of Truth reveal the truth within them. It's already there, they just have to open up.

The challenge is in the dialogue technique, manner and process...how you steer things and respond. Manners count. The egoic tendency is to strike back, get the upper edge on the 'other', usurp them, belittle their viewpoint or person, etc. However when authentic research is attending....the ego dissolves back into the background, that the light of truth may dawn in its own shining. Truth in its purity is worth more than the vainglory of ego.

In an existential sense of what is essential and universally true,....the Spirit of 'God' Alone is that which is life and truth, the reality innate within both 'being' and 'consciousness', that which is prior to, pervading and transcending all that is ('God' includes all, yet is the reality prior and transcending all). We explore, research and intuit this realm of original reality as 'Non-Duality'.





pj

 

[Caino]

Jesus was certainly the Father incarnate which means "manifest in the flesh". He was more than just "unified with the Father". He was the Father incarnate.

I meant that Jesus wasn't the original Father, but he is "a chip off the ole block". The creator sons are from the Father, expressions of the Father, manifestations of the Father, but they are separate beings, personalities.

The UB says that these truths are "nonunderstandable".......to the finite mind of man.


Caino

 

[ThePresbyteers]

This message is deleted and closed.

 

[Caino]

When I first discovered this topic on Urantia, I found something new to me. While I was reading this topic, I've noticed that the Urantia Book say many things about religion, Christians and denominations. I may have to agree that Christians do go way off the neverending path. I've noticed there is another member on TOL. His ID is Letsargue. His topics can be found at:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=662170
Letsargue has the same attitude towards other Christians and many denominations if not all of them as the Urantia book readers say here at this topic. Please take the time to peek at Letsargue topics and find the similarities of his beliefs regarding other Christians and denominations and the beliefs on the Urantia Books regarding to Christians and denominations. I can't help to see some similarities on the two belief system. Perhaps Letargue is also a Urantia Book reader. Can you point out the differences?

It would not be accurate to say that the UB is "anti Christian" or anti any other evolved religion. The UB claims to be the 5th epochal revelation to this world. In the coarse of the narratives on the history of revelation and the subsequent religions that grew out of those activities, the revelators discus negative developments away from the original core truths that inspired the establishment of certain belief systems. The UB respects the evolutionary component of religion on Urantia. Concomitantly the UB correlates old facts, previously revealed truth, and new revelation.

 

[One Truth]

I meant that Jesus wasn't the original Father, but he is "a chip off the ole block". The creator sons are from the Father, expressions of the Father, manifestations of the Father, but they are separate beings, personalities.

The UB says that these truths are "nonunderstandable".......to the finite mind of man.


Caino

That would depend on how you define "separate."

33:1.2 Our Creator Son is not the Eternal Son, the existential Paradise associate of the Universal Father and the Infinite Spirit. Michael of Nebadon is not a member of the Paradise Trinity. Nevertheless our Master Son possesses in his realm all of the divine attributes and powers that the Eternal Son himself would manifest were he actually to be present on Salvington and functioning in Nebadon. Michael possesses even additional power and authority, for he not only personifies the Eternal Son but also fully represents and actually embodies the personality presence of the Universal Father to and in this local universe. He even represents the Father-Son. These relationships constitute a Creator Son the most powerful, versatile, and influential of all divine beings who are capable of direct administration of evolutionary universes and of personality contact with immature creature beings.

​

God is One. You cannot separate Him. The "separation" is an illusion to the finite mind (as you said: "these truths are "nonunderstandable".......to the finite mind of man.") The more your mind is "spiritized" by your Thought Adjuster (which is the same thing as "renewing your mind" ... "be transformed by the renewing of your mind.") the more we can understand these things that seem so difficult with our material (carnal) mind.

Michael is the personality of the Father and the Eternal Son manifest in this realm. He doesn't just "represent" the Father as in someone who represents the Dalai lama or the Pope or some other "head." He IS the Father in this realm. That is what is meant by "downstepping." The Thought Adjuster is a "downstepped" part of the Father which dwells within us.

 

[freelight]

cosmic wonders...........

cosmic wonders...........

Letsargue has the same attitude towards other Christians and many denominations if not all of them as the Urantia book readers say here at this topic. Please take the time to peek at Letsargue topics and find the similarities of his beliefs regarding other Christians and denominations and the beliefs on the Urantia Books regarding to Christians and denominations. I can't help to see some similarities on the two belief system. Perhaps Letargue is also a Urantia Book reader. Can you point out the differences?

I highly doubt Letsargue is a UB reader - of all people. Cant help but chuckle here, knowing his beliefs. Furthermore,...he's hasnt added much at all to the UB threads on TOL, as far as I know. You're welcome to send him a private message to find out for yourself.



pj

 

[One Truth]

The Kingdom is not of this world. The Kingdom is spiritual. Only The Holy Spirit can reveal The Kingdom to you, and only if you're born again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Truth
What is it that we “see?”


I cannot tell you. The natural man cannot comprehend His Kingdom.

But you just said... "the Holy Spirit can reveal the Kingdom to you and only if you are born again."

You have also said, "I've been born again, and have His Spirit residing in me."

So if you have the Spirit residing within and you have been born again you should be able to tell me what the Kingdom of God is. Only those who have been born of the spirit shall see the Kingdom of Heaven. So, what do you see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Truth
"The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity—the best of the religions of the twentieth century—is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers."



You say that you did not say "hogwash to that statement. But you did and when you say "hogwash" to the fact that the world needs more "firsthand religion" and say that "one knows or finds God other than firsthand" by:

Reading His Word, praying, fellowshipping with other born again Christians, being under anointed preaching, teaching, prophecy and apostolic guidance. Not to belittle first-hand knowledge, through The Word of Prophecy, Who is Lord of all, but He inspired His Word to be written so that we could learn the Truth about life, through the lessons He designed into the lives of Biblical characters

.

then I would say that you have not experienced God yourself "firsthand". The ways you have suggested in "knowing God" are all second-hand. I am not talking about knowing "about" God, knowledge "about" God, I am talking about knowing Him personally, as personal as you may know your spouse (not just about your spouse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Truth
I also asked that you name some of the “demonic doctrines” that you insist are in The Urantia Book.

First and foremost: it was channeled by a demon. Second: it makes Christ into an angel, which He is not. He is God. Michael is His creation, not His brother.

Urantia Book, Paper 4, Page 59
Religious tradition is the imperfectly preserved record of the experiences of the God-knowing men of past ages, but such records are untrustworthy as guides for religious living or as the source of true information about the Universal Father. Such ancient beliefs have been invariably altered by the fact that primitive man was a mythmaker.

The Bible is the perfectly preserved record of God's Perfect Word to men. Belief in the demonic doctrine of the UB, instead of The Holy Bible is heresy.

The list goes on and on... but these are clearly opposed to Christianity, and not hand-in-hand with it, as some believe.

First of all, the Urantia Papers were not "channeled". How do you suppose God spoke to the Prophets? How do you suppose an Angel spoke to man?

Secondly, The Urantia Book does not say anywhere that Christ -- the Creator Son, Michael -- (who became Jesus in the flesh) is a created Angel. He is the Son of the Living God.

First of all, you would have to show me how the Bible has been perfectly preserved (the Bible, as we know it today, being only close to 400 years old) having been translated and revised over 100 versions. This is not preservation.
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/Scriptures/index.htm

You must be one who believes that the canon of Scripture is "that which is perfect" from 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." That is another discussion.

Heresy can only be valid when Truth has being corrupted. The Urantia Book does not corrupt any truths. It validates, enlarges and reveals a higher understanding of certain concepts taught through Christianity, but it does not corrupt the Truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by One Truth
I would also like to know why you believe that The Urantia Book leads one away from God?

I don't believe your answer explained why you believe this.

I need to leave but will continue this at another time.

 

[Aimiel]

But you just said... "the Holy Spirit can reveal the Kingdom to you and only if you are born again." You have also said, "I've been born again, and have His Spirit residing in me." So if you have the Spirit residing within and you have been born again you should be able to tell me what the Kingdom of God is. Only those who have been born of the spirit shall see the Kingdom of Heaven. So, what do you see?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Truth
"The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity—the best of the religions of the twentieth century—is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers."

You say that you did not say "hogwash to that statement. But you did and when you say "hogwash" to the fact that the world needs more "firsthand religion" and say that "one knows or finds God other than firsthand"

The world needs more born again Christians, not men who experiment with false religions and demonic doctrines. First hand experience with demons whom you've presumed are angels is NOT from God, and never will be endorsed by Him. Yes, many Christians know 'about' God; and never come to know Him. The UB doesn't lead anyone to God, though, only to Satan, masquerading as God.

First of all, you would have to show me how the Bible has been perfectly preserved (the Bible, as we know it today, being only close to 400 years old) having been translated and revised over 100 versions. This is not preservation.

You haven't done your homework. The Bible is accurately handed down, and if you don't want to believe that God not only is capable of doing so, but did so in Person, then you're on your own.

You must be one who believes that the canon of Scripture is "that which is perfect" from 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." That is another discussion.

I don't believe that, but if you'd stop putting words in my mouth through presumption, we might be able to communicate better.

Heresy can only be valid when Truth has being corrupted. The Urantia Book does not corrupt any truths.

:rotfl: It corrupts every single Truth it quotes from Scripture or from Christian doctrines.

(It) validates, enlarges and reveals a higher understanding of certain concepts taught through Christianity, but it does not corrupt the Truth.

Noting about the UB is valid, based upon sound doctrine, sent from God, reveals any 'higher understanding' but ONLY corrupts the minds of anyone who might think that it is even partially valid. It's garbage.

 

[freelight]

Creator Sons.............

Creator Sons.............

First of all, the Urantia Papers were not "channeled". How do you suppose God spoke to the Prophets? How do you suppose an Angel spoke to man?

'God' uses many ways to speak to man,...from within his own soul/spirit, to the agency of divine Sons, angels, spirits, dreams & visions, prophets, teachers, etc. All creation declares the glory of 'God'....also the Book of Nature.

Secondly, The Urantia Book does not say anywhere that Christ -- the Creator Son, Michael -- (who became Jesus in the flesh) is a created Angel. He is the Son of the Living God.

Correct, as already covered,....Jesus is a Creator Son, a 'Michael' (of the order of Michaels,...not the arch-angel Michael of traditional theology). One must first understand the Christology of the Papers before making presumptions.

See - The Paradise Creator Sons



pj

 

[Caino]

One Truth,


Agreed, I think we are getting hung up on the manifestation of the Father within the Creator Sons.

Would you say then that all the creator sons are the same individual?

"In the local creations (excepting the personnel of the superuniverses) God has no personal or residential manifestation aside from the Paradise creator sons who are the fathers of the inhabited worlds and the sovereigns of the local universes. If the faith of the creature were perfect, he would assuredly know that when he had seen a Creator Son he had seen the Universal Father; in seeking for the Father, he would not ask nor expect to see other than the Son. Mortal man simply cannot see God until he achieves completed spirit transformation and actually attains Paradise."

......"see God until".


Sequentially, philosophically, theoretically I understand that the Father is manifest in the Creator sons as the Father. The original Father does not create, the sons do. Im saying that the creator sons are not God absolute, the first source and center.

As persons you may conceive of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son as separate individuals, for they indeed are; but in the administration of the universes they are so intertwined and interrelated that it is not always possible to distinguish between them

Its not accurate to say that all these manifestations of God are the same individuals, although they are all indistinguishably unified.

Caino

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus is not of ANY order which has other members. He is The Only Begotten of The Father. Making Him of an order which is named after an angel is designed to draw away His pre-eminence and authority.