The Myth of free-will unto salvation

[MennoSota]

2 Timothy 2:25-26
God*may perhaps grant them repentance*leading to a knowledge of the truth,*26and they may come to their senses and escape from*the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Notice that God grants or does not grant repentance.
One does not choose...or not choose to repent on their own...by their free-will. No. God determines by either granting or not granting repentance.

Scripture, yet again, eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation.

 

[Right Divider]

Ah. the old "God makes all men robots" theory....

Fallacious and illogical.

 

[glorydaz]

Notice that God grants or does not grant repentance.
One does not choose...or not choose to repent on their own...by their free-will. No. God determines by either granting or not granting repentance.

Scripture, yet again, eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation.

Notice that Paul is not talking about repentance unto salvation, but a change of mind concerning some doctrinal dispute or other error....of a truth, not the truth of the Gospel.

 

[beloved57]

Notice that Paul is not talking about repentance unto salvation, but a change of mind concerning some doctrinal dispute or other error....of a truth, not the truth of the Gospel.

You need to prove that doesn't sound accurate.

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[glorydaz]

You need to prove that doesn't sound accurate.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Erring from the truth on doctrinal issues....arguing over non-essentials seems to be Paul's point here.

2 Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.​

 

[ttruscott]

Notice that God grants or does not grant repentance.
One does not choose...or not choose to repent on their own...by their free-will. No. God determines by either granting or not granting repentance.

I agree 100%!

Scripture, yet again, eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation.

This is too imprecise for full agreement...
eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation - eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in GOD's fulfillment of the promise of salvation to a sinner whereas the person's involvement in the cause of their being elected (ie, promised salvation if they should ever sin), was only and perfectly found in GOD's response to their free will faith in HIM and HIS Son.

1. We were elected in Him before the foundation of the world so it is impossible that anything we sinners do on earth can cause our election and
2. As human sinners we are addicted to the enslaving power of evil on earth so it is also impossible for us to facilitate any part of the fulfillment of HIS promise for our salvation.

BUT I find the words any part to be too restrictive because I find that merit based election based upon our free will commitment of our faith to YHWH and the Son to be far superior to the conventional wisdom that our election is NOT merit based but UNconditional and UNmerited. The fulfillment of our election on earth is not under the same rules as the cause of our election pre-earth so the fact that the fulfillment of election in the sinner on earth cannot be merit based but is by grace, not works, cannot be willy nilly applied to the cause of our election.

A merit based cause for election is an absolute corollary to the fact that unmerited election of some also means an unmerited being passed over for election of others which denies GOD's righteous justice in that HE would never condemn anyone without them earning some dis-merit to earn the condemnation...the very essence of justice.

Justice demands that election and non-election be merit based even though it is obvious that no sinner can effect or mitigate the fulfillment of the pre-foundation of the earth election by anything they do or do not do on earth.

 

[ttruscott]

Ah. the old "God makes all men robots" theory....

Fallacious and illogical.

Our predetermined lives on earth as sinners without a free will has absolutely nothing to do with our created nature as ingenuous innocents with a free will. Between our creation and our being made, sown as, human came our fall which corrupted everything in us.

 

[MennoSota]

I agree 100%!


This is too imprecise for full agreement...
eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation - eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in GOD's fulfillment of the promise of salvation to a sinner whereas the person's involvement in the cause of their being elected (ie, promised salvation if they should ever sin), was only and perfectly found in GOD's response to their free will faith in HIM and HIS Son.

1. We were elected in Him before the foundation of the world so it is impossible that anything we sinners do on earth can cause our election and
2. As human sinners we are addicted to the enslaving power of evil on earth so it is also impossible for us to facilitate any part of the fulfillment of HIS promise for our salvation.

BUT I find the words any part to be too restrictive because I find that merit based election based upon our free will commitment of our faith to YHWH and the Son to be far superior to the conventional wisdom that our election is NOT merit based but UNconditional and UNmerited. The fulfillment of our election on earth is not under the same rules as the cause of our election pre-earth so the fact that the fulfillment of election in the sinner on earth cannot be merit based but is by grace, not works, cannot be willy nilly applied to the cause of our election.

A merit based cause for election is an absolute corollary to the fact that unmerited election of some also means an unmerited being passed over for election of others which denies GOD's righteous justice in that HE would never condemn anyone without them earning some dis-merit to earn the condemnation...the very essence of justice.

Justice demands that election and non-election be merit based even though it is obvious that no sinner can effect or mitigate the fulfillment of the pre-foundation of the earth election by anything they do or do not do on earth.

What did the thief on the cross merit before the moment God gave faith and salvation?
The answer: Nothing

So much for your merit based pretzel.

 

[ttruscott]

What did the thief on the cross merit before the moment God gave faith and salvation?
The answer: Nothing

So much for your merit based pretzel.

The thief was a sinner who had lost all control of his free will when he chose to sin and as a sinner never had any control over his election. He was not created as as sinner contrary to blasphemous doctrine but CHOSE TO SIN before he was sown into the earth Matt 13:36-39. At the moment of his death with Christ he obviously had nothing of merit to earn the grace of his salvation as I already said in the post you are replying too, sigh.

Merit was the CAUSE of any particular person's election or non-election.
The FULFILLMENT of election in a sinners life on earth was NOT on merit but grace only.


I notice that you ignore the crux:
...unmerited election of some also means an unmerited being passed over for election of others which denies GOD's righteous justice in that HE would never condemn anyone without them earning some dis-merit to earn the condemnation...the very essence of justice.


Until one deals with the fact that unconditional election must mean unconditional, unmerited, condemnation, they will never have true rest...

 

[MennoSota]

The thief was a sinner who had lost all control of his free will when he chose to sin and as a sinner never had any control over his election. He was not created as as sinner contrary to blasphemous doctrine but CHOSE TO SIN before he was sown into the earth Matt 13:36-39. At the moment of his death with Christ he obviously had nothing of merit to earn the grace of his salvation as I already said in the post you are replying too, sigh.

Merit was the CAUSE of any particular person's election or non-election.
The FULFILLMENT of election in a sinners life on earth was NOT on merit but grace only.


I notice that you ignore the crux:
...unmerited election of some also means an unmerited being passed over for election of others which denies GOD's righteous justice in that HE would never condemn anyone without them earning some dis-merit to earn the condemnation...the very essence of justice.


Until one deals with the fact that unconditional election must mean unconditional, unmerited, condemnation, they will never have true rest...

We will disagree on your non-biblical assertion that humans are born perfect and without sin. It seems clear you do not understand covenants and the results of breaking covenants.

 

[ttruscott]

We will disagree on your non-biblical assertion that humans are born perfect and without sin. It seems clear you do not understand covenants and the results of breaking covenants.

Misquote me again and I'll put you on a report! I never said " humans are born perfect and without sin"! I claim everyone born on earth is a sinner and only sinners are born on the earth. I claim no one was CREATED as a sinner and OUR BIRTH IS NOT OUR CREATION!!! Get with the story or pack it in, eh?

 

[beloved57]

Erring from the truth on doctrinal issues....arguing over non-essentials seems to be Paul's point here.

2 Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.​

Doesn't provide proof

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[glorydaz]

Doesn't provide proof

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It's not my responsibility to help you figure this stuff out.

 

[MennoSota]

Misquote me again and I'll put you on a report! I never said " humans are born perfect and without sin"! I claim everyone born on earth is a sinner and only sinners are born on the earth. I claim no one was CREATED as a sinner and OUR BIRTH IS NOT OUR CREATION!!! Get with the story or pack it in, eh?

You are saying the same thing. You just imagine if you put different colored frosting on a cake that it isn't the same frosting.

 

[ttruscott]

You are saying the same thing. You just imagine if you put different colored frosting on a cake that it isn't the same frosting.

In what dictionary except your...mind, is birth = to creation? After I've told you a dozen times I do not believe they are the same at all you pretend that for me to write one is to mean the other. You are scurrilous and smarmy in your approach to argument, you have no honour!

 

[Truster]

Only the Eternal Almighty has free will. Only He has the wisdom necessary to make use of His will to form the decree that will span time. Only the Eternal Almighty has the power to manifest and fulfill His Good and Perfect Will. First displayed in the utterance, "Let there be Light and Light became".

 

[MennoSota]

In what dictionary except your...mind, is birth = to creation? After I've told you a dozen times I do not believe they are the same at all you pretend that for me to write one is to mean the other. You are scurrilous and smarmy in your approach to argument, you have no honour!

Whatever.
Why you reject scripture regarding the curse is between you and God.