The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology

[beanieboy]

I have a bumper sticker by Ghandi on my car that says "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Of course, it only makes everyone half blind, but anyway, it's catchy. But maybe it's time to get a new sticker since this makes sense to me Dave. And I liked on Fire's commentary too. It does put it into perspective.

Proverbs 26:27 (New International Version)

27 If a man digs a pit, he will fall into it;
if a man rolls a stone, it will roll back on him.

It doesn't say, someone will push him into the pit or someone will roll a stone over him. So it could be "the equal and opposite reaction" is what the "eye for an eye" scripture is referring to. And not a separate party executing judgment.

But, considering that, why God's need for a human sacrifice as repayment for our sin?

That's what I've never understood.
If we are going with eye for an eye, then, technically, God would disobey us, and all would be well, so I'm confused why there is a need for human sacrifice.

I go to God with this all the time, and rarely get an answer.

 

[Nineveh]

Did I miss something? Where did he say that?!

The OP:

"Rather, I submit that the wisdom of "eye for an eye," is from the perspective
of the one who inflicts injury. God has always held humanity accountable for
our actions, especially those which hurt others.

What better way to understand the pain inflicted upon another person than
to experience it yourself. "

 

[beanieboy]

The OP:

"Rather, I submit that the wisdom of "eye for an eye," is from the perspective
of the one who inflicts injury. God has always held humanity accountable for
our actions, especially those which hurt others.

What better way to understand the pain inflicted upon another person than
to experience it yourself. "

His question is:
If Jesus call is for the victim to forgive, what is the call of the perpetrator?

While, I don't think it is to literally be victimized ("please, steal my coat..."), the victim may at least have to listen to the person explain how they felt. I once saw a show where a woman confronted a boy who molested her, and she explained what the effect had on her, until he was crying.

It's seems that at the very least, you would have to understand what you did effected another materially, emotionally, etc.

 

[Nineveh]

bean the buddhist,
I'm glad you are tying to expound on dave's teachings.

 

[Poly]

Do you feel any real satisfaction from revenge?
I never have. It never seems to be enough.
What you want is for things to be the way they were before it happened, and you can't get that back. You want to make the other person understand and feel what you feel, but that doesn't bring anything back.

You're awfully arrogant and give yourself way too much credit, making it out as if people are eaten up with the fact that you won't see things their way. I'm not stupid enough to think you're going to change. You're a filthy homo choosing to destroy yourself. That's just the way it is. It certainly isn't keeping me up at night.

 

[beanieboy]

bean the buddhist,
I'm glad you are tying to expound on dave's teachings.

And Nineveh the Christian isn't?

What do you think about what he said?
If the victim is to forgive, what of the perpetrator?

What do you believe that the Christian God calls for?

Let's be specific.
Poly burns your baby picture. It's the only one you have.
She does it in anger. She's sorry later.
You forgive her, because she has asked for forgiveness.

What do you think that God requires of Poly?
Any sort of restitution?

 

[beanieboy]

You're awfully arrogant and give yourself way too much credit, making it out as if people are eaten up with the fact that you won't see things their way. I'm not stupid enough to think you're going to change. That's just the way it is. It certainly isn't keeping me up at night.

To what do I give myself credit?

There was a movie that I watched where Jodi Foster played a high school girl who is gang raped. She wanted revenge, but when someone rapes the men in front of her, knowing what they were feeling, having been through the experience, she says, "stop! No more!" She didn't want to be what they were - rapists. She didn't find any sympathy or peace in taken vengence out on another.

In a Woody Allen movie, two characters talk about whether there is such a thing as a perfect murder. One says, "no, because even if you get away with it, you have changed, and are now a killer, never the same again."

I agree with that.

It has little to do with me.
I am simply not naturally an angry person, nor mean to people.
Since I was a kid I was always defending the ones people picked on.
It's just part of my upbringing or personality, a part of who I am.
I feel bad when I behave any other way.

As an adult, I understand that my brother, who was very destructive, was angry for a reason, and I sympathize now. It was difficult to then, but I do now.

But please don't think I see myself as being arrogant or proud.
Far from it.

Namaste

 

[Nineveh]

And Nineveh the Christian isn't?

No, I try not to clarify bad theology.

What do you think about what he said?

I'll refer to the first time I answered this question back on post 9.

 

[beanieboy]

Dave is in need of serious thrological help. What sounds good on the outside of his words usually winds up being extremely debased just underneath.

In this case, justice is restitution for a wrong, not "revenge" and not so the guilty will gain "empathy".

What is "justice" for someone burning your one and only baby picture?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

beanie - Gods call to both, is peace. God wants the victimizer to cease, the victimizers is in a way hurting his/her self when they create victims. We are to do unto other as we would have done unto us, this is the formula for peace.

 

[Poly]

To what do I give myself credit?

There was a movie.... I'm blabbering and I can't shut-up!!!

:blabla:


Namaste

 

[beanieboy]

I don't see it.

I was mugged walking home one night, and my head was split open.
I was unable to go to work for 2 weeks, the entire hospital bill came to $7,000, and I was angry, I fantasized about killing the person because I was so angry, was freaked out for a long time to be out in public... It has a long term effect on me.

A simple, "Gee. Sorry. Won't do it again" doesn't seem like restituion.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Asking for restitution is not forgiveness

 

[Ecumenicist]

A scripture comes to mind, about Zacchaeus, was it, the tax collector? Jesus got through
to him and he restored double to everyone he had cheated. But he did it of his own free
will, Jesus didn't direct him to do so.

This matches nicely with OF's "turn the other cheek" and "give the cloak also" quotes.
Double back is like returning the coat that was stolen, and also giving another coat
in recompense.

Dave

 

[beanieboy]

What I'm saying is, I walk away with a head injury, being scared for some time, and a $7K bill, AND God would say that I should forgive, and the mugger should simply say, "wow. Sorry. I will "cease." Won't happen again. See you around."

That's it??

 

[beanieboy]

A scripture comes to mind, about Zacchaeus, was it, the tax collector? Jesus got through
to him and he restored double to everyone he had cheated. But he did it of his own free
will, Jesus didn't direct him to do so.

This matches nicely with OF's "turn the other cheek" and "give the cloak also" quotes.
Double back is like returning the coat that was stolen, and also giving another coat
in recompense.

Dave

This makes sense - to not only "cease" but to pay back what you stole (because it isn't yours) and give double (because that part is). In that way, Zaccheus understood what it was like to lose that money, and it benefits the person who was victimized.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

I think what Zaccheus did was more than restitution, it was making peace.

 

[wickwoman]

The repayment is for the benefit of the victimizer, though the victim may receive some benefit from it. However, Jesus addressed his comments to the victim - give him your cloak as well. So, it seems when the victimizer gets around to paying the victim back, the victim should have already considered the debt paid. This is for the benefit of the victim. Attachment to the results causes pain for the victim. Wanting recompense causes pain for the victim. The original pain is in attachment to dignity and property. If there is no attachment to dignity of personhood/self or property, there is no pain when it is lost.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Forgiveness rather empowers the victim, forgiveness tranforms the victim, he is no longer a victim

 

[Ecumenicist]

I have a bumper sticker by Ghandi on my car that says "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Of course, it only makes everyone half blind, but anyway, it's catchy. But maybe it's time to get a new sticker since this makes sense to me Dave. And I liked on Fire's commentary too. It does put it into perspective.

Proverbs 26:27 (New International Version)

27 If a man digs a pit, he will fall into it;
if a man rolls a stone, it will roll back on him.

It doesn't say, someone will push him into the pit or someone will roll a stone over him. So it could be "the equal and opposite reaction" is what the "eye for an eye" scripture is referring to. And not a separate party executing judgment.

But, considering that, why God's need for a human sacrifice as repayment for our sin?

Great question, Wick...

My take on it is, before Christ the "eye for an eye" thing mandated physical
punishment, again to help sinners realize the impact they have on others.

I believe that in the act of self sacrifice, Christ takes on the physical punishment
on behalf of humanity.

But that doesn't leave us without accountability, we
still have the "conviction of the Holy Spirit," which may in some ways be more
painful than physical punishment. The conviction of the Holy Spirit reveals to
us the pain we cause others, and we experience that pain in the deepest
parts of our souls.

I believe that its more painful for someone to have to witness the cruel
punishment of another "just" person when we ourselves are the guilty parties,
than to experience the punishment ourselves. I think God knew that too, hence
the conviction of the Holy Spirit, Hence God's Wisdom in choosing self sacrifice
as a means of demonstrating the true wages of sin to humanity, and the
true depth of God's love for humanity, in self sacrifice on our behalf.

Dave