The "without cause" hermeneutic.

[CabinetMaker]

What makes you think we're hoping for a different result? Do you think god was hoping for a different result each time He sent a plague upon Egypt?

It would be very easy to conclude from this sentence that you do not care about the unbeliever. You should be on your knees praying for a different result. Does God want Presephone66, and other like him, to be saved?

People harden their own hearts. And Phelps is one of those people. He has no effect on people because his own heart is hard.

People harden their harts based on, at least partly, on the witness we provide for Christ. Everything we do is watched and judged by the world. What hope do we show that proves to them God's plan for their life is better than their own?

 

[Lighthouse]

Reference please.

Are you serious? Do the phrases, "sons of hell," "children of your father the devil," "brood of vipers," and "whitewashed tombs," mean anything to you?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Are you serious? Do the phrases, "sons of hell," "children of your father the devil," "brood of vipers," and "whitewashed tombs," mean anything to you?

Tough to argue against that. :up:

 

[Lighthouse]

It would be very easy to conclude from this sentence that you do not care about the unbeliever. You should be on your knees praying for a different result. Does God want Presephone66, and other like him, to be saved?

And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
-Matthew 10:14

And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
-Mark 6:11

And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.
-Luke 9:5

Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
-Matthew 15:12-14

People harden their harts based on, at least partly, on the witness we provide for Christ. Everything we do is watched and judged by the world. What hope do we show that proves to them God's plan for their life is better than their own?

We're not dying of AIDS at the age of 35. We're not raising children who are junkies and alcoholics. We're not becoming infertile because we had an abortion. Shall I go on?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Sozo, it is great to talk to you like this. We may disagree but you are presenting you arguments in a discussion instead of some of your other ways of communicating. Thank you!

Rebukes do work. You are wrong. You just think that because you have not seen the desired results on him that someone is doing something wrong. That's just foolish, and a bit self-righteous. Plus, he certainly can be removed from this site. I should know.

I never said rebukes didn't work, I said that if they are your only tool then you are not the best witness for Christ that you can be. Yes, he can be removed from this site - but not by you. That was the point. You cannot remove him and your rebukes just make him dig in against God all the harder. Maybe its time to try one of the other approaches in 2Timothy.

So? There has always been people like him and people still come to Christ. You seem to have some kind of hyper-pragmatic view of life.

Praise God for that! All I am suggesting is that each of us look at how we witness and make sure we are doing the best, most complete job, we can.

God wants those who commit capital crimes to be punished by the death, so that people will fear that punishment and either not do those things or repent if they are.

No, God does not want them killed under the New Covenant. I will not say anything more about that subject on this thread.

You still lack a basic understanding between the gospel and government. They do not mix, but they are both ordained of God.

I understand that perfectly. What I have said has nothing to do with government. It is about our individual witness for Christ. Are we doing the best we can? Or are we so wrapped up in this alternate reality called the internet that we forget, or cease to care, that the person on the other end of the link is a human that God loves, and died for, every bit as much as He did for you.

God be with you Sozo.

 

[Stripe]

What a cool hermeneutic. :thumb:

 

[CRASH]

Hey CM - we all agree that we should use all the tools God gave us to win people over to Christ.
As a friend, I think you should pray to God for wisdom as to when to use the fist of God to wake people up to their status before The One True God. And consider the different parts of the body.

Do you think I am unbalanced?

 

[Aimey]

We're not dying of AIDS at the age of 35. We're not raising children who are junkies and alcoholics. We're not becoming infertile because we had an abortion. Shall I go on?

I have respect for all you have said up til this statement. This one point you are making is generally true, however, I am hesitant to present such an argument for reasons to beleive for we also die from terrible sicknesses which cannot be proven to be any less from God merely because we say it isn't.

For me to say, "We're not dying of AIDS, or raising children who turn out to become junkies and alchoholics, or daughters who end up infertile because they were foolish enough to have an abortion." is so full of presumption and haughty
self righteousness that none of us can presume it to be true. Any one of us no matter how great of a parent we are could through strange circumstance become infected with the AIDS virus, or raise a foolish child who is just rebellious and goes thier own way.

I hope there are at least a few parents out ther who are willing to admit that thier children are not angels and could rebell.
I pray mine don't, but I don't assume that thier salvation or thier good behavior is in the bag.

 

[CabinetMaker]

And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
-Matthew 10:14

And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
-Mark 6:11

And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.
-Luke 9:5

He's still here. So are you. Do you want to rejoice at the return of the prodigal son or do want to keep him out because you think he is not worthy?

Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
-Matthew 15:12-14

Are you fit to make that judgment? I know full well that many will not be saved. But while I am here I will do my best to give a good witness for Christ. I will not give up on Presephone66 or any other non-believer as long as they keep coming back. He' still here. What should we do? Ban him because he is gay or witness to him that Jesus wants better for him than death by aids?

We're not dying of AIDS at the age of 35. We're not raising children who are junkies and alcoholics. We're not becoming infertile because we had an abortion. Shall I go on?

Within the Christian community as a whole, people are dying of aids at 35, raising junkies and alcoholics and having abortions. I have talked to several people who call themselves Christians and live a life that many would consider a Christian life. Yet they have had abortions. They have raised sons that have become junkies. They raised them in the church and Christ and God are active in their lives. They have never stopped praying for their sons to come to Christ and rise above the sin in their lives. And yet it happened.

One of the very saddest facts of in America today is that the statistics for abortion, divorce, alcoholism, drug addiction is virtually the same between society as a whole and the Christian community. What does that say of our witness for Christ?

 

[CRASH]

The more you condemn some people the more chance we have of getting them saved!

 

[CabinetMaker]

Hey CM - we all agree that we should use all the tools God gave us to win people over to Christ.
As a friend, I think you should pray to God for wisdom as to when to use the fist of God to wake people up to their status before The One True God. And consider the different parts of the body.

Do you think I am unbalanced?

Based on what I have seen on TOL, yes. I qualify that because I do not now you outside of this setting. I have seen you offer some pretty good encouragement to people. I have never seen anything that would lead me to believe that you want anything other than execution for a gay whether they come to Christ or not. Homosexual sex is a sin like any other sin. It is a sin that Christ died to forgive.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Are you serious? Do the phrases, "sons of hell," "children of your father the devil," "brood of vipers," and "whitewashed tombs," mean anything to you?

All spoken to the Pharisees who were all of those things. Teachers, as the Bible says, are held to a much higher standard than the common man. There is no record of Jesus ever insulting a common man to get them to repent.

 

[CRASH]

Thats silly, I want homos to repent and be saved.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The more you condemn some people the more chance we have of getting them saved!

The more we condemn people the better the chance they will never turn to Christ! If all they ever hear is how much God hates them because they are such vile sinners, why would they ever want to know Him. Rebuke must be balanced with compassion and teaching about the hope they have in Christ. We are all only worthy of death and yet Jesus died that we would live. He did that for everybody. Not all will come to Christ. I just don't to stand before God and have Him ask me, "Why did you drive my son away form me?"

 

[CabinetMaker]

Thats silly, I want homos to repent and be saved.

How do they know that from you?

 

[CabinetMaker]

BS

You cannot just say I am wrong without saying why. You disagree with me. Fine. What is your bases for saying I am wrong.

 

[CRASH]

Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."

 

[CRASH]

The more we condemn people the better the chance they will never turn to Christ! If all they ever hear is how much God hates them because they are such vile sinners, why would they ever want to know Him. Rebuke must be balanced with compassion and teaching about the hope they have in Christ. We are all only worthy of death and yet Jesus died that we would live. He did that for everybody. Not all will come to Christ. I just don't to stand before God and have Him ask me, "Why did you drive my son away form me?"

In many cases they will have a better chance of turning to Christ when they see their true state than they will if they are just given love and grace and mercy. There needs to be balance and wisdom involved.

 

[CRASH]

How do they know that from you?

Because I tell them.

 

[Stripe]

The simple observation that homos are perverts forces anyone who hears the statement to make a judgment. Generally a homo will direct judgment toward the person who made the statement.

CabinetMaker - is the judgment of this type of person correct?