toldailytopic: Does a Christian lose their salvation every time they sin?

[godrulz]

Because you are too focused on the flesh. I am not sugesting sodomy, since it is a popular topic here, is ok. In fact, people should be encouraged to quit. But for somebody in Christ, the Father does not see that sin.

He sees us through his perfect son. It doesn't matter what your flesh does, it isn't sin when you trade your life for his. Because that is what he did at the cross.



I believe you are wrong about who said it and why. Don't feel bad, I was a catholic at one time and didn't know any better.

I am going to prepare a scripture proofed post, but I have other things to do right now. The post is for Inzl Kett about being in the Spirit vs the flesh. An important lesson Paul tried to teach people. I think even the motormouth gets it, when she isn't babbling on about other things.

Or maybe I can find one already prepared by Sozo, and just quote it. I like it when other people do the leg work.

You are making a holy God deaf, dumb, and blind. You are spouting a modern sinless perfection theory, not a biblical view. God sees sin as it is. He sees the pastor who commits adultery, not Jesus making Him blind while the guy is doing it. Paul dealt with the sinning Corinthians harshly, not with modern pious platitudes that make no logical/biblical sense. Heb. 12 is a believer sin context and says God disciplines us like children out of love. We cannot euphemize sin away to embrace false exchanged life theories promoted by radio preachers with bad theology and biblical ignorance.

Divorcing flesh and spirit, sin and obedience, etc. is rationalizing, not biblical balance. A negation of personal responsibility and the omniscience/omnipresence of God is bizarre. The exhortations and imperatives in the NT to the Church contradict Nick's view, nuff said.

 

[godrulz]

When this happens, your flesh is still dead, and it is what we see. But God does not. He is the one that says we don't have sin, we have his righteousness. Don't focus on the flesh, focus on the fact that he settled the sin issue, and you are identified with it. Not the rotten no good things we do daily and wish we could stop.

Paul did not teach mind over matter or spouting platitudes. He taught practical holiness not divorced from theory.

 

[Nick M]

How many times does one intend to nail Jesus to the cross? I thought part of salvation was to sin no more once saved, do I have it wrong?

:up:

This is what happens when you read, and don't try and fit what you want to be true into what is written.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Verse one and two are one part. People read shall we continue, as though it is a choice. Paul says, "certainly not!", because you can not. He says how can you live in sin if you are dead to it. It is impossible.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


This is why you can not sin, as in break the law. You can not be tried and recrucified. We are all guilty, so we don't need to even look at that. Yes, that includes you William and Andy. To baptise in a simple term is to immerse. We are immersed into his death. He was raised by the Father, as he was without spot or blemish. Unlike us. If he is raised up, and we are in him, then we are also raised up.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Paul continues on, telling you not to be an instrument of sin and not be in it. He isn't saying don't covet, that is impossible. An impossible standard as Inzl Kett pointed out. But guess what, that is the standard that the Lord Jesus Christ gave us in his earthly ministry. To enter into life, keep the commandments.

I want to skip ahead a little bit.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Read 20-23 in light of his start, that says we are identified with his death and resurection. You are either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. If you are a slave to righteousness, that means righteousness owns you. You are not yourself. You belong to God.

And about Paul "struggling" with sin. He didn't.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

It is his flesh that is dead. He says we are in the Spirit, raised up with Christ.

Chapter 8

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Your flesh is dead, and continues to sin. And that is where some get hung up. See yourself in Spirit, as in Christ.

 

[Nick M]

You are making a holy God deaf, dumb, and blind. You are spouting a modern sinless perfection theory, not a biblical view. God sees sin as it is. He sees the pastor who commits adultery, not Jesus making Him blind while the guy is doing it. Paul dealt with the sinning Corinthians harshly, not with modern pious platitudes that make no logical/biblical sense. Heb. 12 is a believer sin context and says God disciplines us like children out of love. We cannot euphemize sin away to embrace false exchanged life theories promoted by radio preachers with bad theology and biblical ignorance.

Divorcing flesh and spirit, sin and obedience, etc. is rationalizing, not biblical balance. A negation of personal responsibility and the omniscience/omnipresence of God is bizarre. The exhortations and imperatives in the NT to the Church contradict Nick's view, nuff said.

Incase anybody here thinks godrulz is a Christian in the body of Christ, who believes that Jesus died for all his sin.

I would give you 5 points for intentional blasphemy, to call the gospel of grace an unbiblical theory. It isn't like he doesn't know, he rejects it. Even P66 knows. He reads what it says in these threads.

 

[godrulz]

Incase anybody here thinks godrulz is a Christian in the body of Christ, who believes that Jesus died for all his sin.

I would give you 5 points for intentional blasphemy, to call the gospel of grace an unbiblical theory. It isn't like he doesn't know, he rejects it. Even P66 knows. He reads what it says in these threads.

There is biblical grace which I affirm and hyper-grace that is antinomianism, which we should all reject.

I do not deny His perfect provision, but I do deny that God is not holy or that sin is not sin when done by a believer (the Bible explicitly names sins that believers commit and never talks about blanket forgiveness while persisted in).

Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not an excuse for sin. It is what we do with flesh/body that determines vice/virtue, not just having a body (which is not sinful unless you are a Gnostic). Rom. 6:13-16; I Peter 1:13-16.

Be a man and take responsibility. The TV preacher who is guilty of greed and immorality is sinning and cannot blame a nebulous flesh for it or presume that God winks at it (Heb. 12).

Calling Nick's antinomian theories on the carpet is NOT rejecting biblical grace/truth. Arrogant ignorance makes me nauseated.

I affirm the gospel of grace/truth and reject the heresies of universalism, OSAS, antinomianism, hyper-grace, exchanged life, etc. Most false teachers or cultists do not realize they teach error, but they do.

Unless Nick is infallible deity, I would take him with a grain of salt. He makes fundamental mistakes in logical, biblical thinking.

 

[Nick M]

Paul didn't struggle with sin. You are judging the flesh. He said don't do it. He is describing the flesh where you quoted him. He said reckon yourself in the Spirit.

I need to change one thing. We are to judge the flesh, but not in terms of righteousness or salvation.

 

[Nick M]

There is biblical grace which I affirm

You are making a holy God deaf, dumb, and blind..... We cannot euphemize sin away to embrace false exchanged life theories promoted by radio preachers with bad theology and biblical ignorance.

If anybody ever need catholic "last rites" to beg God to forgive you, it's you.

 

[Paulos]

In 2 Timothy 2:19, didn't Paul also say:

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness"?​

And in 1 Corinthians 5:5, didn't Paul hand a member of the Corinthian church over to Satan for a certain sin that he committed? Thankfully he was apparently restored in 2 Cor 2:6-8, but it proves that even Christians are subject to temporal punishment for sins.

I am also reminded of Paul's caution regarding partaking of the Lord's Supper unworthily:

1 Corinthians 11
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.​

Note that last part. Paul said that many Christians had fallen ill because of their sin--and some had even died--but their chastisement was given to them in order to save them from being condemned with the world.

 

[godrulz]

If anybody ever need catholic "last rites" to beg God to forgive you, it's you.

Last rites sacrament is unbiblical and a waste of time.

I was justified and became a child of God when I received Christ (Jn. 1:12; Rom. 4-5; Rom. 10:9-10; Jn. 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13).

I have eternal life now and am secure in Christ because I am a believer saved by grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8-10; Titus 3:5).

He is able to keep me from falling and I will be glorified (Jude 24-25; Rom. 8:28-30).

This does not contradict I Jn. 1:9; Rom. 6-8, etc. since godless unbelief, falling away, apostasy is a unique sin, the only one that severs our relationship with God if persisted in unto death (Heb. 6:4-6). A fleshly sin (which is more than a wrong doing or unprofitable euphemism) affects fellowship and intimacy, not fundamental relationship (cf. marriage strain vs divorce).

The root problem of sinless perfection, exchanged life, OSAS, etc. is confusing justification and sanctification issues. The Rom. 8 proof text (Calvinism) is also not a causal, unconditional chain in light of security verses AND apostasy warning verses.

The issue is still free will vs determinism. The free will people who defend OSAS are being inconsistent and should also embrace universalism error to be consistent.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Let me see if I understand the reasoning.

1. People didn't understand Jesus.
2. People don't understand Joey.
3. The value of Joey's message is therefore comparable to the value of Jesus's message.

Is that about right?

Not exactly.

 

[JoeyArnold]

If sinning unsaves, then unsinning saves. Unsinning means living a good life, doing the right things, being holy, perfect, without sin, WWJD, doing what Jesus does, being a light, being Christian, being right, being nice, turning the other cheek. If some sins are worse than others then some sins can do more damage than other sins. If some sins are worse, then some sins are not as worse. Eventually you will find things that aren't sin. Therefore, it would be possible to find things that are not sin and therefore merit salvation, if this line of thinking were of the truth.

 

[coulter4president]

You might be hitting on something there. The flesh does have a mind of its own. Here is what Paul continues to say--lets leave it in one big block instead of scissors and paste.

Romans 8: 1-13 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: hat the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

And here at the back Paul echoes what you said in your previous post.
I am willing to learn from scripture.

Romans 8: 38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and walking after the Spirit means rejecting the t hings of the flesh... rejecting SIN..

you cannot sin and at the same time be "walking in the spirit"

the flesh strives against hte spirit..

there is no Once Saved Always Saved... and anyone who says there is doesn't know the Bible... or common sense.. or logic

it makes no sense to say that you can sin all you want and it wont affect your soul and spirit... wont distance you from Jesus Christ, who NEVER sinned.

if it was OK to sin all you want, then surely God Himself could have sinned and it wouldn't have affected HIM...

 

[Nick M]

If sinning unsaves, then unsinning saves.

That is right, Joey. If sinning habitualy causes death, then not sinning habitualy would cause undeath, or life.

Good luck with that endevour.

 

[graceandpeace]

Christians cannot sin; because God does not let our sin be imputed to us...we have put the flesh to death. That which is dead, cannot sin. We live and walk by faith; where sin is not a issue.

It takes time to learn this, as we grow in grace.

 

[graceandpeace]

If we are not going to ignore a good portion of the Bible and several fundamental principles of scripture, a Christian that has not yet ceased from sin is still not converted and not saved. It's not that the person lost his salvation, but that he was never converted in the first place, which is why that person is still in bondage to sin.

This is where I would disagree with you, El...

As we grow in grace, God reveals much about grace and how He no longer imputes the sin to us..but, to know that in order to be saved is not the case. All one has to know to be saved is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Over time, God reveals more to us.

 

[chrysostom]

Christians cannot sin; because God does not let our sin be imputed to us...we have put the flesh to death. That which is dead, cannot sin. We live and walk by faith; where sin is not a issue.

It takes time to learn this, as we grow in grace.

are you saying that you still sin
but
it is not imputed to you?

 

[coulter4president]

Christians cannot sin; because God does not let our sin be imputed to us...we have put the flesh to death. That which is dead, cannot sin. We live and walk by faith; where sin is not a issue.

It takes time to learn this, as we grow in grace.

then i guess you can cheat on your spouse, cheat on your taxes.. lie to your children and your neighbors and even to yourself...

and Jesus, when you die is going to say, No prob... come up to the highest part of Heaven.. Never mind that you did all those things to ME... and didn't care how it affected ME... (St Mt 25:31-46), didn't care how much you hurt ME (and the ones i love enough to die 4)

I hate to tell you this, but God HATES sin...

and you hate it also.. when it is done against YOU.. when your spouse sins against you by cheating... Say you came home and your spouse was in bed w/ another person... What you feel is what GOD himself feels... your spouse has done this not only to you but to GOD Himself...

and if the spouse is not sorry and repents and changes...

why should this said spouse go to Heaven and be with God forever... a God s/he has rejected and tormented all his/her life?

no, a person who loves the sin more than the Creator is not even going to WANT to be with an absolutely Holy God.. who hates sin

 

[coulter4president]

This is where I would disagree with you, El...

As we grow in grace, God reveals much about grace and how He no longer imputes the sin to us..but, to know that in order to be saved is not the case. All one has to know to be saved is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Over time, God reveals more to us.

it is not just time that reveals God to us.. it is knowing ALL that Jesus Christ would have us to know... and there is no better w ay to KNOW someone than to be in that person's presence... the Catholic Church is the only one on Earth where can be found Christ's TANGIBLE PResence that has the power to overcome our sin...

but those who have a lot of unconfessed mortal sin on their soul (or even one, i should say) will not be able to benefit from this Presence as much as someone who abstains from sin out of love for Jesus.. Sin separates us from Jesus... mortal sin especially. i ought to know... i have been very close to Jesus and then committed (distant past) a mortal sin... Oh, how i greived when i felt this separation from Him... and how many prayers i began to pray (rosaries) and how many Masses i attended in order to get back that closeness... i was miserable... like a soul in Hell, which is where souls are at when they are separated from Christ... ​

 

[graceandpeace]

are you saying that you still sin
but
it is not imputed to you?

of course...:chuckle:

 

[graceandpeace]

it is not just time that reveals God to us.. it is knowing ALL that Jesus Christ would have us to know... and there is no better w ay to KNOW someone than to be in that person's presence... the Catholic Church is the only one on Earth where can be found Christ's TANGIBLE PResence that has the power to overcome our sin...

but those who have a lot of unconfessed mortal sin on their soul (or even one, i should say) will not be able to benefit from this Presence as much as someone who abstains from sin out of love for Jesus.. Sin separates us from Jesus... mortal sin especially. i ought to know... i have been very close to Jesus and then committed (distant past) a mortal sin... Oh, how i greived when i felt this separation from Him... and how many prayers i began to pray (rosaries) and how many Masses i attended in order to get back that closeness... i was miserable... like a soul in Hell, which is where souls are at when they are separated from Christ... ​

Oh come on now..not even your own denomination teaches that anymore...(only in the catholic church).

Read the new catechism.