toldailytopic: Does a Christian lose their salvation every time they sin?

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godrulz

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:up:

Why then have you elsewhere here said that OSAS is not the gospel? I am wondering how you come to that conclusion with what you say above. What you said above is correct. A Christian can not sin. Keeping it simple....A Christian can walk up to a Wal-Mart, steal a candy bar, and it isn't a sin. Sometimes that is hard for people to get their head around, but he is not bound by the law.

And no, that doesn't mean you should feel as though you can pillage your neighbors. We shouldn't even need to go to that discussion.



So, a person who fornicates 1 week before conversion is sinning, but the new convert who lapses and fornicates one week after genuine conversion (an atheist and a Christian can both have sex since they have free will), it is not a sin?! You have not read I Cor. or Heb. or I Jn. if you defend your statements. A Christian who commits adultery or murder (possible) is sinning just as much as a non-Christian who does these things. God does not cease being holy nor does His law become suggestions just because we are in Christ. Christians were actually disciplined to the point of death (as in OT) for sin (without losing salvation).

Exchanged life is thinly veiled antinomianism and rationalization. Sin is sin whether before or after conversion. Adultery and lying does not become non-sin just because a Christian does it. Justification treats us as if we never sinned, but that does not mean post-conversion sanctification issues are identical or not sin (Rom. 6:13-16; I Peter 1:13-16).
 

godrulz

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Then your "salvation on trial" message is a denial of His finished work on our behalf.

Justification is not identical to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. The issue is conditional vs unconditional justification (vs universalism heresy) and perseverance (vs OSAS heresy).

Using your logic, the fact that all are not saved is a denial of His finished work? Salvation is dependent on being in Christ, not rejecting Him (I Jn. 5:11-13; Heb. 6:4-6).
 

godrulz

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How does one stop being in Christ? You don't put yourself there. And he said when you are put there, you become his slave. You are a slave to (his)righteousness.

When did you become a deterministic Calvinist? TULIP is not true nor are decretal views.

How does one cease being married? Even many MAD people recognize that Jewish Christians (Heb. 6) could stop being in Christ and fall away and lose salvation (so ask them how one can stop being in Christ!). MAD usually says circ is not OSAS, but uncirc is OSAS (so the only difference is pre-post Paul or ethnic background? which is arbitrary in light of the focal point of the cross). If you accept that circ are not OSAS, then you have your answer.

You are arguing free will vs robotics (a person can change their mind and God does not coerce salvation or perseverance...if people can reject and resist the saving grace/power of God before conversion, then they can reject His keeping grace/power after conversion). Like it or not, there are genuine Christians who are now atheists, Mormons, Muslims, etc. Your view forces us to accept Christian atheists, a contradiction in terms. To say they were never saved if they fall away is a loop hole, but totally illogical for all cases (like saying someone was not truly married if they divorce).

Read my lips: salvation is relational, not mechanical/metaphysical (based on love and freedom, not cause-effect coercion/causation).
 

JoeyArnold

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The ultimate sin is unbelief, a unique sin. It is the only one that severes or keeps one from relationship with God. It is the antithesis of the condition of saving faith. If we were saved by being sexually moral, then being immoral might unsave us. Since we receive grace through faith in Christ, then the way to forfeit or not get grace is to not believe, cease to believe, reject Christ. A Christian can lust and remain a believer (disciplined by God vs rejected by God Heb. 12). A Christian who renounces Christ and follows Islam, atheism, Buddhism, etc. is not trusting Christ, is no longer saved (one cannot be saved apart from being in and remaining in Christ: Heb. 6:4-6; I Jn. 5:11-13).

There is no need to cling to Calvinistic OSAS/POTS for assurance. A believer has assurance from the Word/Spirit. An apostate/one who fell away should not be given false assurance, but should be called back to repentant faith.


The Bible, God's Word, the Scriptures, makes no direct mention to actual real genuine authentic for-real Christians who is, are, were, was, will, can, has, ever, actually, authentically acted, possessed, went through, actual, definite salvation-killing unbelief (sin unto death) disbelief (walking away from the faith), choosing no longer to believe, choosing to walk away, choosing to get unsnatched from the Father's hand (John 10:27, 28, 29, 30), choosing to turn away, to unadopt oneself, to cut one hands off, the branches off the vine, to turn away, to unborn, kill, murder, destroy, walk away, from a faith that isn't limited to linear time, past, present, future, moments, seconds, beyond time, space, reality as we know, physically, because salvation, soteriology, defies gravity, time, space, sins, our ability to make the mark because we missed the mark.

Walking away contradicts the inability to walk in to begin with.
 

JoeyArnold

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When did you become a deterministic Calvinist? TULIP is not true nor are decretal views.

How does one cease being married? Even many MAD people recognize that Jewish Christians (Heb. 6) could stop being in Christ and fall away and lose salvation (so ask them how one can stop being in Christ!). MAD usually says circ is not OSAS, but uncirc is OSAS (so the only difference is pre-post Paul or ethnic background? which is arbitrary in light of the focal point of the cross). If you accept that circ are not OSAS, then you have your answer.

You are arguing free will vs robotics (a person can change their mind and God does not coerce salvation or perseverance...if people can reject and resist the saving grace/power of God before conversion, then they can reject His keeping grace/power after conversion). Like it or not, there are genuine Christians who are now atheists, Mormons, Muslims, etc. Your view forces us to accept Christian atheists, a contradiction in terms. To say they were never saved if they fall away is a loop hole, but totally illogical for all cases (like saying someone was not truly married if they divorce).

Read my lips: salvation is relational, not mechanical/metaphysical (based on love and freedom, not cause-effect coercion/causation).




Salvation, soteriology, is an out-of-this-world outside-of-time relationship, that doesn't, can't, won't, shall not, will not, completely, exactly, follow, imitate, copycat human-limiting, time-refracting, dimensional-reacting relationships, conditions, which are tainted by sin, depravity, time, decay, which alters how we see the world, the universe, God, time, space, dimensions, salvation, soteriology. Salvation, soteriology, like God, Jesus, the Spirit, the trinity, isn't, can't be, exactly singular, either in mechanics or philosophically, because it is at least dualistic, if not more.

Salvation is relational & actual. Salvation includes fellowship & an eternal estate.
 

Tambora

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How does one stop being in Christ? You don't put yourself there. And he said when you are put there, you become his slave. You are a slave to (his)righteousness.
Well Nick M, probably where we see it differently is that I believe I did make a choice to follow Christ and abide in Him.
And I continue with that choice every day.

Others believe they have no choice in the matter, but I believe I do have a choice.
But hey, that's just how I see it based on my own experience.

I don't think we can restrict our relationship with God as a slave.
I believe each metaphor of our relationship with God (slave, son, bride, sheep, branch, etc.) is describing a relationship and not what you actually are.
 

godrulz

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Metaphors convey spiritual truth. We are love slaves (NT slavery was more like employee/employer, not African/white man), not zombie slaves.

The Greek tenses show that faith continues vs ceases. Faith that ceases is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. Continuance in the faith is abiding/remaining in Him vs renouncing/rejecting Him. An apostate is an unbeliever, not another kind of saved believer. OSAS is heretical. Stand your ground, sis.
 

Sherman

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How does one stop being in Christ? You don't put yourself there. And he said when you are put there, you become his slave. You are a slave to (his)righteousness.

When did you become a deterministic Calvinist? TULIP is not true nor are decretal views.

I think you have missed the point behind his post. It isn't Calvinistic predestination. We cannot find Christ on our own. We cannot save ourselves through works. It is Jesus that does the saving. We are saved by His grace after we make a conscious decision to accept His pardon. We might not like the terminology but it is there. We cannot redact it away. We are either a slave to sin or a slave to His righteousness.
 

Nick M

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Well Nick M, probably where we see it differently is that I believe I did make a choice to follow Christ and abide in Him.

All have the choice, the Bible says so. Paul begs people to be reconciled to Christ. It is what happens after you believe his gospel and confess. You are sealed by the Holy Spirit. He will not unseal you. Jesus said never, and I am pretty sure he means it.
 

godrulz

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I think you have missed the point behind his post. It isn't Calvinistic predestination. We cannot find Christ on our own. We cannot save ourselves through works. It is Jesus that does the saving. We are saved by His grace after we make a conscious decision to accept His pardon. We might not like the terminology but it is there. We cannot redact it away. We are either a slave to sin or a slave to His righteousness.

We are either a believer or an unbeliever. I agree that our bent is to be a slave of God or a slave of self/sin/Satan. Where the exchanged life has a problem is not accounting for individual, isolated choices that may be vice or virtue done by believer or unbeliever (so, a believer could fornicate and an unbeliever might not Rom. 6:13-16).

There is ultimate choice (God or Self) and subordinate choices (lie or not lie...a Christian can lie and an atheist may tell the truth).
 

godrulz

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All have the choice, the Bible says so. Paul begs people to be reconciled to Christ. It is what happens after you believe his gospel and confess. You are sealed by the Holy Spirit. He will not unseal you. Jesus said never, and I am pretty sure he means it.

The context around these security passages often have a conditional element. Jesus died to save the whole world, but not all are unconditionally saved. His grace is sufficient to keep us, but not coercively (continuing in the faith, continuing to hear His voice, continuing to follow/love Him, etc. are inherent in the verb tenses).

Your view fails to explain the stern warnings in Scripture about apostasy (you have not admitted yet that the circ could fall away like most MAD teach...you could not grasp how a post-cross believer could forfeit salvation, yet your own view allows for it with circ vs uncirc believers...making it arbitrary and rooting the gospel in something other than the cross) or the e.g. of godly Christians becoming Muslims or even atheists.
 

john w

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"His grace is sufficient to keep us, but not coercively (continuing in the faith, continuing to hear His voice, continuing to follow/love Him, etc. are inherent in the verb tenses)."-wolf

He once again admits he is lost, as he does not "100%," the standard required w/o the dbr,

-continue to follow Him
- continue to love Him
-continue to "etc."

Perverter of the good news, preaching bad news, and w/o a clue as to what happened with the sin/sins issue 2000 years ago.

On record lost.

Wolf.

Watch his cliche response. "etc."
 

john w

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The context around these security passages often have a conditional element. Jesus died to save the whole world, but not all are unconditionally saved. His grace is sufficient to keep us, but not coercively (continuing in the faith, continuing to hear His voice, continuing to follow/love Him, etc. are inherent in the verb tenses).

Your view fails to explain the stern warnings in Scripture about apostasy (you have not admitted yet that the circ could fall away like most MAD teach...you could not grasp how a post-cross believer could forfeit salvation, yet your own view allows for it with circ vs uncirc believers...making it arbitrary and rooting the gospel in something other than the cross) or the e.g. of godly Christians becoming Muslims or even atheists.

I could kill someone right now, and still be justified forever.

Perverter.
 

Tambora

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I could kill someone right now, and still be justified forever.
I agree, IF you still abide in Christ.

However, I don't believe one can deliberately decide to reject God and no longer want to be joined to Him, and remain a child of God.

I do not consider apostasy to be a "slip-up" (as in "oops I sinned so I must not be saved anymore"). As long as you abide in Christ, your sins are covered. For it is His righteousness, not yours, that saves you.

I believe apostasy to be a deliberate act of rejection of the God that you once served.

Apostasy is likened to divorce.
Divorce is a deliberate act to reject and separate yourself from a spouse.
Getting a divorce does not mean that you were never a legitimate spouse at one time.
Being sealed together as spouses does not mean that you are unable to break that sealing and no longer be joined together.
 

john w

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I agree, IF you still abide in Christ.

However, I don't believe one can deliberately decide to reject God and no longer want to be joined to Him, and remain a child of God.

I do not consider apostasy to be a "slip-up" (as in "oops I sinned so I must not be saved anymore"). As long as you abide in Christ, your sins are covered. For it is His righteousness, not yours, that saves you.

I believe apostasy to be a deliberate act of rejection of the God that you once served.

Apostasy is likened to divorce.
Divorce is a deliberate act to reject and separate yourself from a spouse.
Getting a divorce does not mean that you were never a legitimate spouse at one time.
Being sealed together as spouses does not mean that you are unable to break that sealing and no longer be joined together.

"I agree, IF you still abide in Christ."-tambora

Nope-not written to me doctrinally.

I am reckoned to be crucified with Christ, dead in Him, buried with Him, risen with Him, ascended with Him, glorified with Him.


I have the righteousness of God in Christ, I am circumcised, adopted-irreversible.

Romans-Philemon.

"I don't believe one can.....remain a child of God."-tambora

I am not concerned with what you believe. Adoption is irreversible.

"Being sealed together as spouses does not mean that you are unable to break that sealing and no longer be joined together."-tambora

You made that up=humanism. Clown-no purpose to sealing. Neither you, nor anyone else, has the power to break the seal, which is the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and try-"...beateth the air..."

You do not know the "good news," because you have not accepted the bad news-Romans 3:19-23.
 

JoeyArnold

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Well Nick M, probably where we see it differently is that I believe I did make a choice to follow Christ and abide in Him.
And I continue with that choice every day.

Others believe they have no choice in the matter, but I believe I do have a choice.
But hey, that's just how I see it based on my own experience.

I don't think we can restrict our relationship with God as a slave.
I believe each metaphor of our relationship with God (slave, son, bride, sheep, branch, etc.) is describing a relationship and not what you actually are.



If you continue to abide in Christ, if you are making that choice, then where is the change in that? If things are the same after you are saved as they were before they were saved, then where's the transformation? If you have to continue make choices in the same ways after you are saved as you did before you were saved, then what's the point? If there are no benefits to salvation, then why bother? If you are the same person after you are saved as you were before, then where's the life-changing turn-a-round? If you feel, act, think, believe, live, the same, or similiar, or whatever, after you are saved as you were before you got saved, then why did you get saved to begin with? What was the point? If you have to continue to believe, then what is the point? Is point just a pointless act? Is faith just a noisy menace that must be done each day? Do we have to chant the Lord's Prayer each day like the Catholics? How do we maintain this faith? Why is this faith in need of maintenance? Why is this faith falling apart? Why would we ever stop believing to begin with? Why or how could we even begin to walk away to begin with?
 

JoeyArnold

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Metaphors convey spiritual truth. We are love slaves (NT slavery was more like employee/employer, not African/white man), not zombie slaves.

The Greek tenses show that faith continues vs ceases. Faith that ceases is unbelief, the antithesis of saving faith. Continuance in the faith is abiding/remaining in Him vs renouncing/rejecting Him. An apostate is an unbeliever, not another kind of saved believer. OSAS is heretical. Stand your ground, sis.

The relationship between salvation, soteriology, us, the ones being saved, the eternal estate, the butterfly transformation effect, the eternity that is ensured & promised here & now & forever, justification, sanctification, glorification, and all those other things, the relationship between all of that and faith, after-effect faith maintenance, fellowship, obedience, discipline, growing in the faith, growing in Christ, abiding, living, dying, for Jesus, those things, are all related, with each other (the two), lunalistically, in a very mysterious way. I wrote the word lunalistically to describe the relationship between being saved & acting like you're saved. Lunalistically, faith produces works.
 

JoeyArnold

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I agree, IF you still abide in Christ.

However, I don't believe one can deliberately decide to reject God and no longer want to be joined to Him, and remain a child of God.

I do not consider apostasy to be a "slip-up" (as in "oops I sinned so I must not be saved anymore"). As long as you abide in Christ, your sins are covered. For it is His righteousness, not yours, that saves you.

I believe apostasy to be a deliberate act of rejection of the God that you once served.

Apostasy is likened to divorce.
Divorce is a deliberate act to reject and separate yourself from a spouse.
Getting a divorce does not mean that you were never a legitimate spouse at one time.
Being sealed together as spouses does not mean that you are unable to break that sealing and no longer be joined together.



Does abiding in Christ mean living a good life?
 
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