toldailytopic: Liberal vs. Conservative. Where and why do you stand?

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Newman

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You're obviously a "Christian libertarian", (an oxymoron if there ever was one).

More mindless pigeonholing. Let's see what this label brings up...

Wikipedia defines Christian libertarianism as follows: "Christian libertarianism is a term used by people to describe the synthesis of their Christian beliefs with their libertarian political philosophy. It is also a political philosophy in itself that has its roots in libertarianism and it is a political ideology to the extent that Christian libertarians promote their cause to others and join together as a movement. In general, Christian libertarians believe that Christians should not use government as a tool to control others' moral behavior or to initiate the use of force against others. They further believe these principles are supported by Christ's teaching and by the Bible.

I guess I agree with this. Jesus never used government as a tool to control other people.

According to the Reverend Andrew Sandlin while he was at The Chalcedon Foundation, Christian libertarianism is the view that mature individuals are permitted maximum freedom under God's law.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism

I have no idea who that is. More mindless juxtaposition on your part. Why don't you at least ask me first before you attack some issue I don't even identify with?

"...Should not use government as a tool to control others moral behavior or to initiate the use of force against others."

Interesting, so when brother Ralph rapes and murders a woman, the congregation will build the gallows?

Rape is and should be illegal. Murder, too. I believe I've already made this clear. Let me know if I'm going too fast. I know some people can be kind of slow.

"According to the Reverend Andrew Sandlin while he was at The Chalcedon Foundation, Christian libertarianism is the view that mature individuals are permitted maximum freedom under God's law."

"Maximum freedom under God's law".

Let me guess. Smoke a little dope, watch a little porn, maybe have a little out of wedlock sex with Peggy Sue. It's OK, afterall, we are Christians and we have a "relationship with God".

No, it's not ok. It's sinful. But why do you think those sins should be illegal? Once again, I've made this clear before. Quit it.

If you are just going to copy and paste from other websites that you think represent my views (wikipedia? really? you do know that anybody can edit/create content for wikipedia articles, right?), then I'm not interested in arguing with you. Let me know when you have some valid criticisms of things I've actually said, not some random website.

Let me help you out. You can click to reply to this post (or one of my other posts) and then wrap quote tags around different parts to respond to. That way you don't have to waste your time coming up with fake issues to attribute to my own ideology.

More on the bogus ideology of Christian libertarianism later. I have a few other carp to fry first.

If by carp to fry you mean cr@p to fling, then sure - go ahead.
 

aSeattleConserv

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Right off the bat, you are dead wrong. You are confusing the word "libertarian" with "libertine". Here is the definition of "libertine" to clue you in:

No, let me clue you in. In ANY libertarian literature, be it the party platform of the Liber(al)tarian Party, the Mises Institute, the libertarian "stink tank" Cato Institute, the Austrian School of Economics; NOWHERE will you find mention of God. Why? Back to the LP's preamble: "As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others."

Might I add that includes God as "others".

Sure, there are moral libertarians. However their morality is not based on any set standard other than what the preamble says: his or her [personal] values. (Christian libertarianism is another subject).

I notice you have a quote from President John Adams in your signature. Guess what he was? A libertarian. Another president, Ronald Reagan (perhaps one of your heroes), has been quoted as saying: "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."

I'm very familiar with the Founding Fathers and their writings. You'll notice that my signature says "ONLY for a moral and religious people". Libertarianism back then had a totally different meaning than it does today (it's been hijacked by the Godless left). I'll gladly share the writings of the Founding Fathers with you (I'll start with the 1,067 page book entitled "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States"), showing for the most part that the Founders were EXTREMELY religious CHRISTIANS. One only look at their laws to see that (and I'll guarantee you that they didn't allow homosexuality, prostitution or other immoral behavior).

In this lifetime, God is sovereign over your life if you choose to have God be sovereign over your life. Non-Christians, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who doesn't believe what you believe has freedom of religion in this country under the Constitution--in case you haven't noticed!

We were founded as a "Christian Nation". No, not under the Christian religion, but founded as a Christian Nation. Sorry agnostics, atheists, wiccans and "The Family Guy" worshippers; , you can live here, but not RULE our country that was founded under CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES.


There are libertarians who are anti-abortion:

Yeah, and there are homosexuals that are as well. They're called "Ala carte moralists" (they're related to "ala carte Christians"). They get to pick and choose which of God's laws they want to abide by.
 

Newman

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No, let me clue you in. In ANY libertarian literature, be it the party platform of the Liber(al)tarian Party, the Mises Institute, the libertarian "stink tank" Cato Institute, the Austrian School of Economics; NOWHERE will you find mention of God. Why? Back to the LP's preamble: "As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others."

I didn't realize that every institution anybody ever identified with had to mention "God" somewhere. :kookoo:

I bet the owner's manual of your car doesn't mention "God". I bet your gov't issued marriage license (if you are married) doesn't mention "God". I bet whatever public school (if you went to a public school) you went to never mentioned "God" in its written purposes. I bet you've signed up for numerous services that never mention "God" in their terms of service. Go get a clue before you try to "clue somebody in".

Where is that in the Bible? You're starting to really make things up now, too. And what of what I said about the Republican party platform? Do you just like to ignore things that prove you are wrong?

And don't you dare speak poorly of the Mises Institute or the Austrian school of thought. What a fine institution! What a clear-headed school of thought!
 

Newman

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We were founded as a "Christian Nation". No, not under the Christian religion, but founded as a Christian Nation. Sorry agnostics, atheists, wiccans and "The Family Guy" worshippers; , you can live here, but not RULE our country that was founded under CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES.

Wrong. We were founded as a nation with a first amendment. If you're so well read on the literature of our founding fathers, how could you miss the most important document, indeed the most important part of the most important document?
 

Newman

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So God didn't ordain the Church, the family, and civil government for the governance of men?

http://www.mbrem123.com/creeds/wcf_23.php

YOU THINK OUR GOVERNMENT IS CIVIL?!

You think Obama is a...
"civil magistrate, to be, under him, over the people, for his own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evildoers."
?
 

aSeattleConserv

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I didn't realize that every institution anybody ever identified with had to mention "God" somewhere.

No, only the important ones. For a "Protestant Christian", why are you so ashamed of the word "God". Could it be you're a false prophet? Could it be that you're more of the Ron Paul mindset: "When fascisim comes to America, it will be in the shape of a cross"?

I bet the owner's manual of your car doesn't mention "God".

Just say NO! to drugs Newman.

And what of what I said about the Republican party platform? Do you just like to ignore things that prove you are wrong?

Get your facts staight; they're called "Republicrats" these days". (Unless you were peeking over my shoulder on election day, you don't have a clue as to how I voted).

And don't you dare speak poorly of the Mises Institute or the Austrian school of thought. What a fine institution! What a clear-headed school of thought!

I just did. Want some examples of their "clear headed schools of thought"?
 

aSeattleConserv

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YOU THINK OUR GOVERNMENT IS CIVIL?!

You think Obama is a...
"civil magistrate, to be, under him, over the people, for his own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evildoers."
?

Does an evil magistrate negate what God ordained?
 

aSeattleConserv

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For proof that we at the Mises Institute deliberate about God's involvement in government and the origin of human rights, listen to this. Beware: you might learn something.

http://mises.org/media/5247

I learned something long ago about the Godless Mises Institute and Austrian School of Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Block
http://www.walterblock.com/about/

Note that Block identifies himself as a "devout atheist".

I'll attach dictionary.com so you can look up those words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devout?o=100074

Care to discuss their "lord and savior" Ayn Rand?
 

Paulos

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No, let me clue you in. In ANY libertarian literature, be it the party platform of the Liber(al)tarian Party, the Mises Institute, the libertarian "stink tank" Cato Institute, the Austrian School of Economics; NOWHERE will you find mention of God.

The God of the Founding Fathers was the God of Nature, not the God of the Bible. The Founding Fathers were Deists. They most certainly were not Christians in the modern Evangelical sense. In this post, I will provide you with a number of their quotes to prove that fact. I'll start you off easy with this quote from Thomas Jefferson:

"Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." [Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363]​

I'm very familiar with the Founding Fathers and their writings. You'll notice that my signature says "ONLY for a moral and religious people".

Here's a quote from President John Adams, followed by a brief description of the context in which the quote was made:

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell." -- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed, Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254

John Adams is here describing to Thomas Jefferson what he sees as an emotion-based ejaculatory thought that keeps coming to him. This was not his reasoned opinion. Although John Adams often felt an urge to advocate atheism as a popular world view (because of the sheer abuses perpetrated by religious charlatans), he was of the firm and reasoned opinion (basically undisputed in his day) that religion is essential to the goal of keeping the masses in line.

Knowing what we know today, to say this is pure slander against atheists. And yet it is still quite popular, especially among the uneducated, the widespread acknowledgment of its falsehood notwithstanding.

Thus, Adams was not above presenting such travesties as his "National Day of Prayer and Fasting" proclamation. These acts reflected his view that the masses needed religion to keep this world from becoming a bedlam. However, Adams, like Washington and Jefferson, did not apply this reasoning to himself -- as we can plainly see from the quotations in the main section: religion was good for the masses but not for John Adams (for the most part), who was above all that and needed no piety in order to maintain his own sense of civility.​

Quoted from: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

I'll gladly share the writings of the Founding Fathers with you (I'll start with the 1,067 page book entitled "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States"), showing for the most part that the Founders were EXTREMELY religious CHRISTIANS.

Again, the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians...

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." --Thomas Jefferson, in a Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.]​

Quoted from: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

The truth about the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers is this:

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [i.e., Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Adams, Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity."
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831. First sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15​

We were founded as a "Christian Nation".

"...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by President John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)​

http://bmccreations.com/one_nation/nation.html
 
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aSeattleConserv

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Wrong. We were founded as a nation with a first amendment. If you're so well read on the literature of our founding fathers, how could you miss the most important document, indeed the most important part of the most important document?

You'd have to look at the THOUSANDS of other documents and letters that the Founding Fathers wrote in order to understand their mindset when it came to the Constitution.

Allow me to link some.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=23909

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=87

http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Journal/editorial.aspx?id=1072510

I have dozens more.

On that note it's Saturday night in the city. I'm going to go find some heroin, a hooker, and watch some porn.

Wait, I'm NOT a libertarian; nevermind.
 

Paulos

New member
I notice your links are from "positiveATHEISM.com".

I'm well aware of yours sources. Save your ACLU/Americans United for the Separation of Church and State PROPAGANDA for someone else.

Are those quotes not genuine quotes from the Founding Fathers?

Are you telling me that the Founding Fathers were not Deists?
 

Newman

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No, only the important ones. For a "Protestant Christian", why are you so ashamed of the word "God". Could it be you're a false prophet? Could it be that you're more of the Ron Paul mindset: "When fascisim comes to America, it will be in the shape of a cross"?

Finally, your roulette wheel of accusations lands on something that I identify with. I am more of the Ron Paul mindset. And I think that you are living proof that this quote (I've never heard it before, but I'll trust you know it came from Dr. Paul) has some truth in it.

Just say NO! to drugs Newman.

Always have, always will.

Get your facts staight; they're called "Republicrats" these days". (Unless you were peeking over my shoulder on election day, you don't have a clue as to how I voted).

Deal.
 

Newman

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I learned something long ago about the Godless Mises Institute and Austrian School of Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Block
http://www.walterblock.com/about/

Note that Block identifies himself as a "devout atheist".

I'll attach dictionary.com so you can look up those words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devout?o=100074

Care to discuss their "lord and savior" Ayn Rand?

Objectivism is not libertarianism. You're confusing your -isms again.

I've met Walter Block. Nice guy. Has a lot more sense about government than you do.

By the way, there are atheists on this very forum. Does that mean the whole forum is atheistic?

Lew Rockwell and Tom Woods are believers and are also associated with the institute, just to name two off the top of my head. Rockwell freakin' founded the thing.
 
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