toldailytopic: The unbeliever asks: how can I be saved? How do you answer?

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Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 25th, 2009 10:52 AM


toldailytopic: The unbeliever asks: how can I be saved? How do you answer? (And how do you support your answer?)






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chrysostom

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Persevere in your belief that Jesus by His suffering, death, and resurrection has redeemed us all

This includes loving your neighbor as yourself and living your life accordingly
 

Nathon Detroit

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I would tell them....

Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. And with a *pure heart tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him.

* pure heart simply means that you aren't just mouthing the words, in that you REALLY do want to be with God in heaven for eternity regardless of your doubt or skepticism.
 

Stripe

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Believe that Jesus rose from the dead to forgive your sins and put all your faith and hope in Him.

Nothing else required.
 

Lighthouse

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"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
-Romans 10:9-10
 

Son of Jack

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"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
-Romans 10:9-10

Bingo...I would add that Knight is right in suggesting that the will is the key to true repentance and belief. Many people understand what must be done; they simply refuse to do anything about it.
 

assuranceagent

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Believe that Jesus rose from the dead to forgive your sins and put all your faith and hope in Him.

Nothing else required.

"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
-Romans 10:9-10

:thumb: No need to get complicated.
 

Jackson

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Not to complicate things but I would say to them;

God created us to be with Him -Gen 1:27

Our sins separate us from God -Ecc 7:20, Gen 3:23

Sins can not be removed by good deeds -Eph 2:8-9, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:27

Paying the price for sin Jesus came and died and rose again -Rom5:8

Everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life -Jon 3:16, 36

Life eternal means we will be with Him forever as first intended -Rev 22:3-5

:guitar:
 

Punisher1984

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Question: why would a non-believer ask such a question - if he doesn't believe in your religion or its concept of "salvation" what would motivate him to ask how he can be "saved" (as in his mind there's nothing to be
"saved" from)?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Question: why would a non-believer ask such a question - if he doesn't believe in your religion or its concept of "salvation" what would motivate him to ask how he can be "saved" (as in his mind there's nothing to be
"saved" from)?
Maybe they have come to the conclusion... there has to be more to life than nothing.

The question regarding salvation gets asked thousands of times everyday, so it's a bit silly to question why it would get asked, knowing that it DOES get asked all the time.
 

Punisher1984

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Maybe they have come to the conclusion... there has to be more to life than nothing.

A staement of metaphysical nonsense - as "nothing" itself is still something (even if only an idea). And even if the question *did* make sense, why would such a conclusion lead them to relgion (as opposed to numerous other passions - painting, body-building, collecting stamps, etc...): why would religion make their lives any more validated than anything else out there?

The question regarding salvation gets asked thousands of times everyday, so it's a bit silly to question why it would get asked, knowing that it DOES get asked all the time.

But it's always believers who are asking the question amongst other believers, usually over disagreements regarding what it means to be "saved" - I am yet to see a non-believer pose the question in any sense that's not academic (ususally for the purposes of comparing the concept of "salvation" between religions).
 

Son of Jack

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The problem, Punisher, is that whether or not it is a nonsensical metaphysical question people ask the question "why am I here?" all the time, and many are not satisfied with the answer, "no reason, you just are."

Why do you think that the West is, generally speaking, the most depressed part of the planet? We live in an environment that affords us the luxuries and leisures and safeties that our ancestors would have literally killed for, and yet we are an angry and unhappy lot.

I think most people acknowledge that the world is not the way it is supposed to be. Thus, the question "why" is born.
 

mmstroud

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A staement of metaphysical nonsense - as "nothing" itself is still something (even if only an idea). And even if the question *did* make sense, why would such a conclusion lead them to relgion (as opposed to numerous other passions - painting, body-building, collecting stamps, etc...): why would religion make their lives any more validated than anything else out there?

I wouldn't. If all I needed was something to validate my life, I wouldn't be at all interested in religion. It's the opposite of what I would seek.

But it's always believers who are asking the question amongst other believers, usually over disagreements regarding what it means to be "saved" - I am yet to see a non-believer pose the question in any sense that's not academic (ususally for the purposes of comparing the concept of "salvation" between religions).

You are on the outside looking into an in-house discussion, which is why you witness all of our disagreements. Do you think that the fact that you haven't personally witnessed a non-believer pose this question in the non-academic sense means that it doesn't happen? And actually, two such examples come readily to mind: bodhigirlsmiles and Thunder's Muse both came to this forum as non-Christians. They both asked a series of questions that boiled down to 'what must I do to be saved'.
 

mmstroud

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 25th, 2009 10:52 AM


toldailytopic: The unbeliever asks: how can I be saved? How do you answer? (And how do you support your answer?)


If this question wasn't in response to a clear presentation of the 'bad news' that we are sinners and deserving of God's wrath and eternity in hell, I would start there. (Rom 1:18 - 3:20)

You can't leave 'em with the bad news, though. The good news of the gospel is that Jesus lived a sinless life, died for our transgressions and was raised for our justification. (Rom 3:21 - 4:25) We lay hold of that truth by faith. In other word's: bad news, good news, exhort to believe.
 

Flipper

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I think most people acknowledge that the world is not the way it is supposed to be. Thus, the question "why" is born.

I'm not entirely sure that the world is supposed to be any way. It just is.

You are right about depression/suicide rates in the West, but I don't know whether you can show causality between that and a lack of spirituality, per se.

After all, I don't think it's been shown that poverty-stricken third world people are necessarily more philosophical or spiritual, yet studies seem to indicate that they are generally happier, even though their lives are shorter and can be filled with loss and pain.

My own sense is that the depression that many feel in modern society may be caused by a number of possible factors that may work in combination.

One factor is the fragmentation of social groups and the emphasis we place on the primacy of the individual - I think that can be quite isolating.

Another might be our cultural priorities and definitions of what constitutes success combined with the idea that anyone can be professionally and socially mobile. These priorities and fluidity has been amazingly successful for innovation and business, but possibly damaging in its affect on those who have not achieved what they believe to be their potential.

This is encapsulated in the ideal of the American dream, an ideal with some truth to it but perhaps not as much as popular culture invests in it. Yes, you can bootstrap yourself but it can be more work than many are willing to put in or could even be beyond their abilities.

Then, combined with the hugely increased leisure time that industrialization has brought when compared to our forebears, and an education system that necessarily focuses on practical learning rather than on philosophical, personal or spiritual development, and you have a problem of fulfillment and you may not have the psychological and critical tools to figure out a solution.

If you're not struggling to eke out a living, and you have a lot more time to think, plus you're not supported by a closely knit extended family or society, and you feel like you've failed to achieve attainable goals, then that's a recipe for trouble.

It is also even possible that our desire to cushion ourselves from the pains and discomforts that life inevitably brings may weaken our self-reliance and inner reserves when we are confronted with these existential questions.

There is also the possibility that environmental factors, such as high-fat/processed sugar-rich diets may also affect our psychological wellbeing.
 

Son of Jack

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I'm not entirely sure that the world is supposed to be any way. It just is.

Well, you can assume it is a brute fact, but that fails to explain, which is what people want when they ask for the question. I think this is the strength of Leibniz's cosmological argument. I'll hash it if you'd like.

You are right about depression/suicide rates in the West, but I don't know whether you can show causality between that and a lack of spirituality, per se.

It certainly seems to be, at the very least, a factor. People have discovered materialism (philosophical and otherwise) fails to satisfy. Think about who is the most depressed in the West, the richest, the most powerful, and the safest.

After all, I don't think it's been shown that poverty-stricken third world people are necessarily more philosophical or spiritual, yet studies seem to indicate that they are generally happier, even though their lives are shorter and can be filled with loss and pain.

I think if we took the spiritual pulse of the rest of the world we would find deep spirituality (maybe not of the Christian persuasion, but nonetheless...).

One factor is the fragmentation of social groups and the emphasis we place on the primacy of the individual - I think that can be quite isolating.

Totally agree that this is part of the problem, but I would say that the reason we are as individualistic as we are is, at bottom, a worldview issue. Though I am a Reformation baby, not all that came from the Reformation was good.

Another might be our cultural priorities and definitions of what constitutes success combined with the idea that anyone can be professionally and socially mobile. These priorities and fluidity has been amazingly successful for innovation and business, but possibly damaging in its affect on those who have not achieved what they believe to be their potential.

Again, a worldview issue rooted in materialism, not Christianity (not that you were accusing Christians of that).

This is encapsulated in the ideal of the American dream, an ideal with some truth to it but perhaps not as much as popular culture invests in it. Yes, you can bootstrap yourself but it can be more work than many are willing to put in or could even be beyond their abilities.

Agreed, again. See the previous comment.

Then, combined with the hugely increased leisure time that industrialization has brought when compared to our forebears, and an education system that necessarily focuses on practical learning rather than on philosophical, personal or spiritual development, and you have a problem of fulfillment and you may not have the psychological and critical tools to figure out a solution.

Very insightful point again.:thumb: Materialism again rears its ugly head here. If man is but a machine, then teach it how to function properly and it will be happy. Strangely, you've made my point for me. We seek fulfillment, but cannot find it in the material...the question is whether or not this is intrinsic to being human. I would argue it is.

If you're not struggling to eke out a living, and you have a lot more time to think, plus you're not supported by a closely knit extended family or society, and you feel like you've failed to achieve attainable goals, then that's a recipe for trouble.

Yup.:thumb:

It is also even possible that our desire to cushion ourselves from the pains and discomforts that life inevitably brings may weaken our self-reliance and inner reserves when we are confronted with these existential questions.

John 16:33...Life is suffering...either there isn't an answer to that or there is.

There is also the possibility that environmental factors, such as high-fat/processed sugar-rich diets may also affect our psychological wellbeing.

Hmmmm....:think:.....

Well, I'm off to eat a poptart...:D
 

allsmiles

New member
Bingo...I would add that Knight is right in suggesting that the will is the key to true repentance and belief. Many people understand what must be done; they simply refuse to do anything about it.

For myself, it has less to do with refusal (as if it's an act of rebellion) and more to do with my being incapable of the force of will necessary to overcome my doubt and skepticism. For myself, the kind of person who would ask such a question is the kind of person who simply doesn't have enough doubt and hence more than enough room for faith. This person may also feel desperate, maybe even hopeless. I understand well the mind's ability to imagine wildly during times of hopelessness.

There are some people whose doubt is stronger than the allure of faith. Try to keep things in perspective: to non-believers your beliefs can be quite bizarre. To many people who aren't hopeless and possess in themselves a healthy dose of skepticism, the only logical response to many of your beliefs is rejection. There are many people who, like myself, simply cannot believe.
 

Son of Jack

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For myself, it has less to do with refusal (as if it's an act of rebellion) and more to do with my being incapable of the force of will necessary to overcome my doubt and skepticism.

Like I said, many refuse, not all. What is your reason for being doubtful and skeptical?

For myself, the kind of person who would ask such a question is the kind of person who simply doesn't have enough doubt and hence more than enough room for faith.

What qualifies as enough doubt? Is only the unbeliever doubtful enough?

This person may also feel desperate, maybe even hopeless. I understand well the mind's ability to imagine wildly during times of hopelessness.

My question is why on earth would someone feel hopeless, given that their basic needs are met. Think about what I was saying above to Flipper, the West in its abundance is in large part miserable, why?

There are some people whose doubt is stronger than the allure of faith.

What I wonder is what fuels such doubt?

Try to keep things in perspective: to non-believers your beliefs can be quite bizarre.

Which ones?

To many people who aren't hopeless and possess in themselves a healthy dose of skepticism, the only logical response to many of your beliefs is rejection. There are many people who, like myself, simply cannot believe.

I totally agree that if you don't believe that there is a problem then there is no need for a solution. See what PB said...that was his biggest obstacle. He overcame it.
 
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