toldailytopic: The unbeliever asks: how can I be saved? How do you answer?

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allsmiles

New member
Like I said, many refuse, not all. What is your reason for being doubtful and skeptical?

And like I said there's a difference between rebellion and inability. Do you ask fish to breath on dry land?

What qualifies as enough doubt?

However much it takes to defeat Christian faith. I suspect it varies from person to person. For myself it doesn't take much.

Is only the unbeliever doubtful enough?

I don't understand what you're asking.

My question is why on earth would someone feel hopeless, given that their basic needs are met.

That varies from person to person. We aren't qualified to answer this question. Most people who have their basic needs met probably aren't hopeless. Hopelessness doesn't hurt when trying to convert someone to a particular religion.

Think about what I was saying above to Flipper, the West in its abundance is in large part miserable, why?

I think most people everywhere are miserable.

What I wonder is what fuels such doubt?

It's not rocket science.

Which ones?

You wouldn't be trying to get a rise out of me, would you? It won't work :D

I totally agree that if you don't believe that there is a problem then there is no need for a solution. See what PB said...that was his biggest obstacle. He overcame it.

For many people there exists no reason to believe that a problem exists. Many people simply can't bring themselves to have faith in such a notion. It's not about rebellion, it's about inability.

Many religions and cults create "problems" and claim to have the "solution". I know how it works. That's how Oprah's belief system works. That's how snake oil salesmen operate. The only people who utilize such a tactic are con artists.
 

Son of Jack

New member
And like I said there's a difference between rebellion and inability. Do you ask fish to breath on dry land?

I wasn't actually doubting that.

However much it takes to defeat Christian faith. I suspect it varies from person to person. For myself it doesn't take much.

I don't understand what you're asking.

See, you've begged the question in your favor to start with. Only those who deny the validity of the Christian faith are doubtful enough.

That varies from person to person.

Of course it does...such is the case with pain tolerance.

We aren't qualified to answer this question.

I'm a human who spends quite a bit of time around other humans, who watches the news, who reads books written by humans...shouldn't that qualify me? Shouldn't it qualify you?

Most people who have their basic needs met probably aren't hopeless.

I can provide you with statistics that prove quite the opposite. The West is the most anxious, most depressed part of the world. I know that you've read Ecclesiastes. That was exactly the point Solomon was trying to make.

Hopelessness doesn't hurt when trying to convert someone to a particular religion.

Matthew 9:12-13.

I think most people everywhere are miserable.

Is this transference? Surprisingly I agree with you.

It's not rocket science.

Actually that could be the answer...:think:

You wouldn't be trying to get a rise out of me, would you? It won't work :D

Me???:)

For many people there exists no reason to believe that a problem exists.

Yet they persist their misery...

Many people simply can't bring themselves to have faith in such a notion. It's not about rebellion, it's about inability.

What evidence could one offer that would satisfy the challenge?

Many religions and cults create "problems" and claim to have the "solution". I know how it works.

There you go again assuming too much. Is man intrinsically miserable or not? And, why?

That's how Oprah's belief system works. That's how snake oil salesmen operate. The only people who utilize such a tactic are con artists.

:rolleyes:
 

Zeke

Well-known member
For myself, it has less to do with refusal (as if it's an act of rebellion) and more to do with my being incapable of the force of will necessary to overcome my doubt and skepticism. For myself, the kind of person who would ask such a question is the kind of person who simply doesn't have enough doubt and hence more than enough room for faith. This person may also feel desperate, maybe even hopeless. I understand well the mind's ability to imagine wildly during times of hopelessness.

There are some people whose doubt is stronger than the allure of faith. Try to keep things in perspective: to non-believers your beliefs can be quite bizarre. To many people who aren't hopeless and possess in themselves a healthy dose of skepticism, the only logical response to many of your beliefs is rejection. There are many people who, like myself, simply cannot believe.

Do you have a hard time getting that broad brush in the paint bucket?
All those above could apply to those who might lean toward your logic as well from my perspective; never mind the God of the bible, the creation alone, and complex nature of it speaks against the logic in your view.
Maybe its your logic needs to get out more.
 

MacGyver

New member
I'm not exactly sure how this fits in, but I like Robert Langdon's answer in Angels and Demons to the God question:

I'm an academic. My mind tells me I will never understand God. My heart tells me I am not meant to. Faith is a gift I have yet to receive.

Surely that fits into this thread somehow.
 

Son of Jack

New member
I'm an academic.


Never mind the fact that many who are reasonably intelligent confess belief...

My mind tells me I will never understand God.

Who says that they can fully understand God...full comprehension does not eliminate relationship. Can one human being fully understand another?

My heart tells me I am not meant to.

Hmmmm...is this a will that is even open to the idea of God? How objective is that?

Faith is a gift I have yet to receive.
Have you sought it?

Surely that fits into this thread somehow.

:idunno:
 

allsmiles

New member
I wasn't actually doubting that.

I was playing around when I asked if you were trying to get a rise out of me, now I'm certain that you are.

You said, "Like I said, many refuse" which completely ignores the distinction I was making and now you're saying that you don't doubt the point I was making. It's this sort of thing that makes it difficult for us to be friends and have serious conversations.

See, you've begged the question in your favor to start with. Only those who deny the validity of the Christian faith are doubtful enough.

Doubtful enough for what? I don't really comprehend the point you're trying to make. People whose doubt is stronger than the glamor of religious beliefs will deny the validity of the Christian faith.

Of course it does...such is the case with pain tolerance.

Okay.

I'm a human who spends quite a bit of time around other humans, who watches the news, who reads books written by humans...shouldn't that qualify me? Shouldn't it qualify you?

I think it's impossible to know with exact certainty what any one is thinking or feeling. We can guess and educate ourselves the best we think we can. We can only ever truly know ourselves. Every case is unique. That we are anxious as a nation is something very different from the misery of individuals.

I can provide you with statistics that prove quite the opposite. The West is the most anxious, most depressed part of the world. I know that you've read Ecclesiastes. That was exactly the point Solomon was trying to make.

You agree that most people everywhere are miserable. We live on a miserable planet. Maybe it has nothing to do with having our needs met and who cares if we're the most miserable. We're also the most Christian nation. What does that tell you?

Matthew 9:12-13.

That's one way to put it. I call it preying on fear.

Is this transference? Surprisingly I agree with you.

Okay.

Actually that could be the answer...:think:

Me???:)

Yet they persist their misery...

Yes you, you're doing it now. Non-belief entails just as much misery as belief does.

What evidence could one offer that would satisfy the challenge?

That varies from person to person. I've never seen any evidence myself and I've always been under the impression that Christianity is a faith that needs no evidence to allege its veracity.

There you go again assuming too much. Is man intrinsically miserable or not? And, why?

I have no idea what you think you're talking about.

 

allsmiles

New member
Do you have a hard time getting that broad brush in the paint bucket?
All those above could apply to those who might lean toward your logic as well from my perspective; never mind the God of the bible, the creation alone, and complex nature of it speaks against the logic in your view.
Maybe its your logic needs to get out more.

I'm not certain what it is about my post that makes you say I'm painting with a broad brush. Would you care to elaborate?
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Never mind the fact that many who are reasonably intelligent confess belief...

Who says that they can fully understand God...full comprehension does not eliminate relationship. Can one human being fully understand another?

For me, this is the real crux of the matter. I could never commit myself to believing in something (in this case, a deity) which I cannot fully understand, comprehend or am not reasonably sure exists.
 

Son of Jack

New member
For me, this is the real crux of the matter. I could never commit myself to believing in something (in this case, a deity) which I cannot fully understand, comprehend or am not reasonably sure exists.

Can you fully know another person? We've had this conversation before, I think...
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Can you fully know another person? We've had this conversation before, I think...

Some ... however, IMO, that isn't a valid comparison. I am able to visually view, verbally communicate and physically touch another human being.
 

MacGyver

New member
Never mind the fact that many who are reasonably intelligent confess belief...

Who says that they can fully understand God...full comprehension does not eliminate relationship. Can one human being fully understand another?
Rusha answered this like I was going to.

Hmmmm...is this a will that is even open to the idea of God? How objective is that?
I think what he's saying there is that if God does exist, he's probably apart of a greater wisdom than we'll ever understand. That's how I took it anyway. That's not saying we never will, just that we probably won't. Don't ask for evidence of "probably," I don't have it. It's just a quote, dude. Not meant to be the end-all argument for nonbelief or anything.

Have you sought it?
Have been all my life (the part that counts anyway...from age 14 or so).
 

Son of Jack

New member
I was playing around when I asked if you were trying to get a rise out of me, now I'm certain that you are.

Actually I'm not...see below.

You said, "Like I said, many refuse" which completely ignores the distinction I was making and now you're saying that you don't doubt the point I was making.

My emphasis, which is difficult to convey via the internet, is on the word many, meaning some but not all. Thus, you are correct in asserting that some people have genuine questions and doubt...but many don't.

It's this sort of thing that makes it difficult for us to be friends and have serious conversations.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

Doubtful enough for what?

Doubtful enough to meet your standard of doubtful enough. It's a convoluted way of begging the question.

I think it's impossible to know with exact certainty what any one is thinking or feeling. We can guess and educate ourselves the best we think we can.

Which is what we are attempting to do...

We can only ever truly know ourselves.

If even that...

Every case is unique.

Without doubt...

That we are anxious as a nation is something very different from the misery of individuals.

In the same way that a single cheerio does not make an entire box....the problem is that the more cheerios one collects the closer one gets to a box. There are plenty of statistics that make the case that the West (not just the States) is full of anxious and depressed people.

You agree that most people everywhere are miserable. We live on a miserable planet. Maybe it has nothing to do with having our needs met

Well, materialism, of the philosophical stripe, makes a point of saying that when basic needs, such as food, water, shelter/protection, the ability and opportunity to procreate, etc., an organism ought to be satisfied...most other animals are...

and who cares if we're the most miserable.

Do you enjoy misery?

We're also the most Christian nation. What does that tell you?

I'm not going to go tit-for-tat about whether there are many genuine Christians in the States because it isn't very productive and it isn't my place to make such a judgment. What I think can't be argued is that the States in particular and the West in general is thoroughly immersed in materialism...just listen to the music we produce and the films we make...

That's one way to put it. I call it preying on fear.

What fear would that be?

Yes you, you're doing it now. Non-belief entails just as much misery as belief does.

The issue is that one of us offers a solution, the other does not.

That varies from person to person.

The question stands for you...

I've never seen any evidence myself and

Again, I ask you, what evidence would objectively satisfy your demand?

I've always been under the impression that Christianity is a faith that needs no evidence to allege its veracity.

Well, I'd argue that you are mistaken...I know you've heard and read some Christian apologists. There are some who are good and some who aren't. But, I'd argue, along with Pascal, that apologetics are helpful, but can never coerce one into belief. There is always room for doubt.

I have no idea what you think you're talking about.

My question is simply whether or not you believe that man is miserable by nature...what do you think?
 

bybee

New member
Well

Well

Question: why would a non-believer ask such a question - if he doesn't believe in your religion or its concept of "salvation" what would motivate him to ask how he can be "saved" (as in his mind there's nothing to be
"saved" from)?

You have hit on my first thought. I would ask him "What is it that you wish to be saved from?". His response would generate my carefully phrased response. "What is your purpose in choosing me to answer your question?". His response to this question would help me decide if I should engage in a serious dialogue or tell him to seek someone else. I'm too old to waste my time. peace, bybee
 

PlastikBuddha

New member
For me, this is the real crux of the matter. I could never commit myself to believing in something (in this case, a deity) which I cannot fully understand, comprehend or am not reasonably sure exists.

Can you believe in meaning and purpose? Never mind attaching personhood to those concepts at this point- can you believe that there is an objective meaning and purpose to the universe that extends beyond whatever we can slap on it as we whizz through on our way to death. Don't get distracted by jargon, it can all be boiled down to that question, imho.
 

allsmiles

New member
Actually I'm not...see below.

My emphasis, which is difficult to convey via the internet, is on the word many, meaning some but not all. Thus, you are correct in asserting that some people have genuine questions and doubt...but many don't.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

I was talking about the distinction between a refusal and one's inability. One is rebellious, the other is not. That's the point that's lost on you.

Doubtful enough to meet your standard of doubtful enough. It's a convoluted way of begging the question.

It's not my standard, it's common sense. If a person's doubt is greater than the glamor of religious beliefs than that person will not be swayed by religious beliefs, including Christian faith. There's nothing fallacious about that and the instances in which you're completely missing out on what I'm saying are piling up.

Which is what we are attempting to do...

If even that...

Without doubt...

Maybe that's what you're attempting to do. I'm content with saying that people feel miserable or utterly hopeless for their own reasons which we won't ever fully understand.

In the same way that a single cheerio does not make an entire box....the problem is that the more cheerios one collects the closer one gets to a box. There are plenty of statistics that make the case that the West (not just the States) is full of anxious and depressed people.

I'm sure that if you could get the data out of North Korea you'd find numbers quite as appalling, if not worse, than the data you get from the west. The degree of misery doesn't seem as important to me as the fact that most people everywhere are miserable. You're making mountains out molehills.

Well, materialism, of the philosophical stripe, makes a point of saying that when basic needs, such as food, water, shelter/protection, the ability and opportunity to procreate, etc., an organism ought to be satisfied...most other animals are...

Your point being what? That our misery somehow connotes an innate understanding that there must be something more to this life? People imagine all sorts of fickle fantasies. There's no end to our unrealistic desires. There exists no reason to choose one fantasy over another.

Do you enjoy misery?

Often.

I'm not going to go tit-for-tat about whether there are many genuine Christians in the States because it isn't very productive and it isn't my place to make such a judgment. What I think can't be argued is that the States in particular and the West in general is thoroughly immersed in materialism...just listen to the music we produce and the films we make...

Indeed we are immersed in materialism. Whether we are more or less miserable than the rest of the miserable world is a non-point.

What fear would that be?

Fear of death. Guilt and regret.

The issue is that one of us offers a solution, the other does not.

So? I've seen a lot of stupid solutions in the absence of good ones in all sorts of situations. This point has zero merit.

The question stands for you...

I'm sorry you don't like it, but your distaste for my honesty doesn't mean that your query went unanswered.

Again, I ask you, what evidence would objectively satisfy your demand?

I don't know but I would know it if I saw it. I'm sorry that's not a good enough answer for you.

Well, I'd argue that you are mistaken...

It doesn't matter if you think I'm mistaken, what matters is that many of your fellow Christians would consider you to be mistaken.

I know you've heard and read some Christian apologists. There are some who are good and some who aren't. But, I'd argue, along with Pascal, that apologetics are helpful, but can never coerce one into belief. There is always room for doubt.

Apologetics is preaching to the choir. It has less to do with defending the faith from external threats and more to do with retaining membership.

My question is simply whether or not you believe that man is miserable by nature...what do you think?

I don't know. I can only tell you that I think most people everywhere are miserable.
 

bybee

New member
Apparently

Apparently

I was talking about the distinction between a refusal and one's inability. One is rebellious, the other is not. That's the point that's lost on you.



It's not my standard, it's common sense. If a person's doubt is greater than the glamor of religious beliefs than that person will not be swayed by religious beliefs, including Christian faith. There's nothing fallacious about that and the instances in which you're completely missing out on what I'm saying are piling up.



Maybe that's what you're attempting to do. I'm content with saying that people feel miserable or utterly hopeless for their own reasons which we won't ever fully understand.



I'm sure that if you could get the data out of North Korea you'd find numbers quite as appalling, if not worse, than the data you get from the west. The degree of misery doesn't seem as important to me as the fact that most people everywhere are miserable. You're making mountains out molehills.



Your point being what? That our misery somehow connotes an innate understanding that there must be something more to this life? People imagine all sorts of fickle fantasies. There's no end to our unrealistic desires. There exists no reason to choose one fantasy over another.



Often.



Indeed we are immersed in materialism. Whether we are more or less miserable than the rest of the miserable world is a non-point.



Fear of death. Guilt and regret.



So? I've seen a lot of stupid solutions in the absence of good ones in all sorts of situations. This point has zero merit.



I'm sorry you don't like it, but your distaste for my honesty doesn't mean that your query went unanswered.



I don't know but I would know it if I saw it. I'm sorry that's not a good enough answer for you.



It doesn't matter if you think I'm mistaken, what matters is that many of your fellow Christians would consider you to be mistaken.



Apologetics is preaching to the choir. It has less to do with defending the faith from external threats and more to do with retaining membership.



I don't know. I can only tell you that I think most people everywhere are miserable.

You have all of the answers. What are you doing under that dark cloud? Creating a methane whirlwind? bybee
 

Son of Jack

New member
I was talking about the distinction between a refusal and one's inability. One is rebellious, the other is not. That's the point that's lost on you.

The point, I'm afraid, was never to be found. I AGREE with you that some people are UNABLE to believe at certain points of their lives. You CANNOT by force of will make yourself belief.

It's not my standard, it's common sense.

The problem is that "common sense" leads some to doubt, others to faith.

If a person's doubt is greater than the glamor of religious beliefs than that person will not be swayed by religious beliefs, including Christian faith.

Yup...

There's nothing fallacious about that and the instances in which you're completely missing out on what I'm saying are piling up.

What is fallacious is that you are arguing that doubt is good, better than faith without providing reasonable warrant for such an assertion (besides the fact that you don't like faith). And, only those who have rejected the Christian faith have doubted enough. That is begging the question.

Maybe that's what you're attempting to do. I'm content with saying that people feel miserable or utterly hopeless for their own reasons which we won't ever fully understand.

The point is that they are miserable, which is the only point I was trying to make.

I'm sure that if you could get the data out of North Korea you'd find numbers quite as appalling, if not worse, than the data you get from the west. The degree of misery doesn't seem as important to me as the fact that most people everywhere are miserable. You're making mountains out molehills.

It matters more than you think it does. My point is very simple. If people have there basic needs met, then it would be reasonable to assume that they would be, on the whole, more happy than their counterparts across the globe.

Your point being what? That our misery somehow connotes an innate understanding that there must be something more to this life? People imagine all sorts of fickle fantasies. There's no end to our unrealistic desires. There exists no reason to choose one fantasy over another.

Do you have a better explanation? Think about it. All men desire happiness (and by happiness I mean something more like what we would call joy), but this world fails to satisfy this desire. Yet, all other natural desires can be fulfilled in and by this world. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that we were made for a different world.


Would you rather be happy?

Indeed we are immersed in materialism. Whether we are more or less miserable than the rest of the miserable world is a non-point.

Hopefully my above comments address this point.

Fear of death. Guilt and regret.

He was provide freedom from death. What did He gain from "preying" on their legitimate fear?

So? I've seen a lot of stupid solutions in the absence of good ones in all sorts of situations. This point has zero merit.

So you have a good one to offer in place of mine??

I'm sorry you don't like it, but your distaste for my honesty doesn't mean that your query went unanswered.

I don't know but I would know it if I saw it. I'm sorry that's not a good enough answer for you.

If that's the case, then what would it look like??

It doesn't matter if you think I'm mistaken, what matters is that many of your fellow Christians would consider you to be mistaken.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Rusha. I don't care what Christians think. I do, however, care what Christianity actually teaches. The fact that Christians disagree is evidence of one thing, namely that we are flawed and fallen human being. I don't have faith in Christians. I have faith in Christ.

Apologetics is preaching to the choir. It has less to do with defending the faith from external threats and more to do with retaining membership.

And, I, for the most part, agree. Though I think it can remove some obstacles to belief...

I don't know. I can only tell you that I think most people everywhere are miserable.

Okay.
 

Flipper

New member
Well, you can assume it is a brute fact, but that fails to explain, which is what people want when they ask for the question. I think this is the strength of Leibniz's cosmological argument. I'll hash it if you'd like.

I have some familiarity with it but I think my issue is slightly different.

"Why is the world the way it is?" is a fine question and in fact has propelled science, philosophy, religion and innovation of all kinds. I'm was questioning the first part of your statement, which is "people acknowledge that the world is not the way it is supposed to be".

Understanding how we got here seems a worthy exercise but I am not sure that the world is "supposed to be" any way other than what it is.

The first of the four noble truths in Buddhism is that life is suffering, and I think that's very correct, if you consider the many forms that suffering comes in. If you accept the evolutionary view, life on this planet is the way it is largely through suffering and desire. Buddhism concerns itself more with understanding and transmuting that suffering.

It certainly seems to be, at the very least, a factor. People have discovered materialism (philosophical and otherwise) fails to satisfy. Think about who is the most depressed in the West, the richest, the most powerful, and the safest.

I'm not sure what the patterns of depression are, but I would be surprised to learn that the rich are more depressed than the rest of us although I know that's held as a common truth.

Another way of looking at your statement above when contrasting rich and poor countries might be: "consumerism fails to satisfy, particularly when you don't feel you're getting what you deserve."

I think if we took the spiritual pulse of the rest of the world we would find deep spirituality (maybe not of the Christian persuasion, but nonetheless...).

I suppose that depends on what you mean by deep spirituality. I suspect that, like in the West, a lot of people typically accept the religious tradition in which they were brought up, but that doesn't imply their religion will bring them much comfort.

Consider the Dalit untouchable class in India. The Dalits live and still live in unimaginable poverty. I used to live in India as a boy and I can still remember the terrible squalor and poverty in which they live. One of the things I remember is that whenever I saw Dalits together they were smiling and laughing. They seemed happy, even though they were the lowest of the low, rejected by society and their own religion.

Until recently, most Dalits were Hindus, which for them meant they had little formal religion at all because Dalits weren't allowed in most Hindu temples because they were considered unclean. What teaching they received is that they were being punished for the sins of a past life.

To me, dalit is not the caste. He is a man exploited by the social and economic traditions of this country. He does not believe in God, rebirth, soul, holy books teaching separatism, fate and heaven because they have made him a slave. He does believe in humanism. .." [Nandu Ram 1995].

I think that may describe the mindset of a lot of Dalits but it certainly isn't true for all because recently a lot of Dalits have converted to Buddhism and a lesser number to Christianity. They find themselves for the first time able to question their place allotted to them within life, and to expect more than the status accorded to them.

The point is, spirituality was not serving the Dalits well, in this life or in the next, because most Hindu traditions that acknowledge the Dalits indicate that the only hope for a Dalit was to serve casted Hindus well enough that they might stand a chance of being born into a caste in the next reincarnation. Of course, that would also mean being born into soul-crushing poverty as most castes are not well off.

Conversely the Piraha tribe in the Amazon are fundamentally irreligious; although they have a conception of spirits, those spirits are confined to objects and people in the here and now in a very unspecified and undefined animism:
Living in the now also fits with the fact that the Pirahã don't appear to have a creation myth explaining existence. When asked, they simply reply: "Everything is the same, things always are." The mothers also don't tell their children fairy tales -- actually nobody tells any kind of stories. No one paints and there is no art.

Source

And yet, when Dan Everett came to live among them as a Christian missionary and learned their ways and language better than any outsider, he found them to be fundamentally happy. So much so, in fact, that he came to question his own beliefs and became an atheist.

To clarify my position; I am not arguing against religion's importance in society, or that it is a negative force. I am arguing that there are examples that show that spirituality isn't always a positive force to unchain the oppressed (in this life or the next) nor does it always provide a palliative worldview to help us bear suffering.

It might help explain why Dalits must suffer and be made to suffer for both the caste Hindus and the Dalits. But a more useful and empirically verifiable explanation is a socio-historical one.

Totally agree that this is part of the problem, but I would say that the reason we are as individualistic as we are is, at bottom, a worldview issue. Though I am a Reformation baby, not all that came from the Reformation was good...

...Again, a worldview issue rooted in materialism, not Christianity (not that you were accusing Christians of that).

True, and I don't think we really disagree on these key points. One important role that I think many religions including Christianity are good at playing is helping us to reconcile our lots in society, placing suffering in a different perspective, and providing hope and some answers regarding what happens after we die. Of course, that doesn't make Christianity or any other religion "true", but that's a different question.

Having said that, not even spirituality guarantees this in our culture. There are plenty of depressed Christians whose faith and commitment I wouldn't presume to question. Depression is no failing on their part, nor is it a failing on the part of their religion. But spirituality on its own is clearly not the whole answer.

Conversely, materialism in the philosophical sense rather than the spiritual sense, can provide its own fulfillment in an industrialized culture once you decide for yourself what meaning there is to be found in your existence. I have found a materialist outlook to be rewarding and enriching.

Just in case I have to head the Argument from Reason off at the pass, I am of a mind - but cannot prove - that the existence of reason has a materialist cause, in that we live in a universe composed of discreet objects. As such, it is governed by logic. My materialism reaches an end a fraction of a femtosecond after the Big Bang, at which I have to shrug my shoulders and say "I don't know."

John 16:33...Life is suffering...either there isn't an answer to that or there is.

The Buddha thought so too. Is there only one answer then? According to Christianity, yes.

Well, I'm off to eat a poptart...:D

They'll get my saturated fats and sugars when they pry them from my cold dead body.

PS. Sorry about the tl:dr
 

allsmiles

New member
The point, I'm afraid, was never to be found. I AGREE with you that some people are UNABLE to believe at certain points of their lives. You CANNOT by force of will make yourself belief.

Your ability or inability to grasp a point isn't the topic of discussion and frankly I couldn't care less. I'm glad you finally found it within yourself to agree with the obvious distinction I made though I regret it's been an unnecessarily protracted ordeal.

The problem is that "common sense" leads some to doubt, others to faith.

Most Christians will say that there's no way to reason one's way to faith. Common sense goes hand in hand with reasonableness. What you cling to are not necessarily reasonable beliefs: adherence to the arbitrary code of an uncompromising super being who impregnated a virgin with himself. It follows that common sense, that reasonableness cannot lead one to unreason.


Is this something else you've been fighting but are finally agreeing with? :doh:

What is fallacious is that you are arguing that doubt is good, better than faith

I believe that it is good to doubt the unreasonable and unsubstantiated claims of Christian faith. Faith by itself is neutral and I do not deny it's existence nor do I condemn it. Religious faith is the kind of faith I challenge.

without providing reasonable warrant for such an assertion (besides the fact that you don't like faith). And, only those who have rejected the Christian faith have doubted enough. That is begging the question.

Yeah, this entire point is untrue and irrelevant. Moot, in other words.

Faith in unreasonable and unsubstantiated claims is to be doubted. That goes for Christianity, Islam, the tooth fairy, the Great Pumpkin, etc. There's no reason to have faith in one unreasonable and unsubstantiated claim over another.

The point is that they are miserable, which is the only point I was trying to make.

Really?

It matters more than you think it does. My point is very simple. If people have there basic needs met, then it would be reasonable to assume that they would be, on the whole, more happy than their counterparts across the globe.

So?

Do you have a better explanation? Think about it. All men desire happiness (and by happiness I mean something more like what we would call joy), but this world fails to satisfy this desire. Yet, all other natural desires can be fulfilled in and by this world. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that we were made for a different world.

Non-sequitur. That we're miserable despite our comfort and amenities doesn't connote the arbitrary notion that we're meant for a different, better world. Maybe we're miserable because this is all we've got and it sucks? And a lot of people do experience joy and completeness and they feel right at home here in this world.

And yes, I do have a better explanation... you responded to it:

allsmiles said:
People imagine all sorts of fickle fantasies. There's no end to our unrealistic desires. There exists no reason to choose one fantasy over another.

You are something else.

Would you rather be happy?

Not necessarily.

Hopefully my above comments address this point.

They didn't.

He was provide freedom from death. What did He gain from "preying" on their legitimate fear?

:squint:

What?

So you have a good one to offer in place of mine??

You would take a point that has zero merit and run with it.

If that's the case, then what would it look like??

:squint:

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Rusha. I don't care what Christians think. I do, however, care what Christianity actually teaches. The fact that Christians disagree is evidence of one thing, namely that we are flawed and fallen human being. I don't have faith in Christians. I have faith in Christ.

Christianity doesn't teach anything. Christians teach what they believe Christianity means. You don't have faith in Jesus, you just hope like crazy that what you've read about him and been told about him by people you trust is true :chuckle:

And, I, for the most part, agree. Though I think it can remove some obstacles to belief...

Okay.

This discussion has been... an excuse for me to shake my head more than I have in one sitting for quite some time. You're a piece of work.
 
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