toldailytopic: What does the resurrection of Christ signify?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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eameece
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Jesus set himself up for sacrifice. Now that's the way many Christians look at it: "he died for my sins."
(see post above for example)
There is only one Father of all. Actually, Jesus said the master is the servant.
There are unBiblical views regarding Jesus and the idea of sacrifice. Are you talking about substitutional atonement? The people, both Jew and Gentile, did not sacrifice Jesus. They killed Him. But it wasn't a human sacrifice. Jesus died for us, this is true. He loved us to His death. His blood was shed for us. Meaning He lived and breathed love for us. There is a verse that says He is our Passover and has been sacrificed. But it is not saying human sacrifice. It is talking about how just as sacrifices were or are a reality, Jesus has taken away our sin by our sins being placed on Him (atonement). Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, says John the Baptist. So I try to understand what these things mean. But God says in the Bible that human sacrifice is forbidden. So language about Jesus and sacrifice has to do not with a ritual or human sacrifice, but with the life the just one gave for us the unjust. I may also be confusing the lamb at passover with the goat at the day of atonement.
Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mark 10:43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
eameece
New member
We need to better understand today what Jesus' death really meant. Instead of seeing it "just as" a sacrifice, as in the primitive religions of archaic times, we can see it as showing us eternal life. That is why he set up his death on the cross and resurrection; to demonstrate immortality. It was not to set himself or his followers apart as saved, and others not. It was to reveal eternal life. When we know this, we are more at peace, and so can sin less. There is nothing else to be "saved" from; no Devil but our own demons; no hell except of our own making. And unless we deal with those ourselves, with help from Jesus or however we contact that great and one power, we are not saved from them, but go on sinning.
Paul said, should we go on sinning that grace may abound? May it never be! He also said, if while seeking to be justified in Christ we are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? No!
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Romans 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
In Romans Paul says...
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
And John says...
1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
1 John 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
We want to say that we are not servants of satan, but the only way that would be true is if you are a servant of God and Christ.
Christ had authority to lay down His life, and to take it up again.
John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
And yet I don't believe He wanted to be killed. He did not "set up" His death... though He seems to have known what would happen to Him.
Luke 22:42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
As for immortality, it is not the conquering of death that brings immortality in a ritual or sacrifice like that of a pagan myth, it is that the power over death was proved (by His appearances after His death) and we see it in (the person of Jesus) Christ.
2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Is it possible that there would be people set apart as saved and others not?
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
It is possible to be saved. Has everyone been saved?
What happens to those who have not been saved (who do not obey the gospel)?
2 Thessalonians 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2 Thessalonians 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
1 Peter 4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
Those who are saved have been rescued from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
Further, some people fear satan, even using the following verse... which is talking about what God does with unrepentant individuals.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
eameece
New member
We seem to agree there.
He set it up; saying that is the same as saying "I lay it down on My own initiative." He was following the "commandment of his Father" in so doing. But what would be true is that he didn't exactly enjoy the prospect. That's what he is saying here:
Luke 22:42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
He "abolished death," for himself at least. He "brought life and immortality to light" in a powerful way. He didn't "die for our sins" so much as reveal the eternity of life that gives us hope and confidence to deal better with our challenges (sins).
Some people have certain virtues that others don't, but everyone has some; including the virtues of faith, hope and love.
There is nothing to be "saved" from, except the Devil of our own demons and the hell of our own making. There can be no true meaning of scripture other than this; certainly not to the effect that good Christians are saved and others are not. Such interpretations are fine for those involved in religious wars, but not for the new age of peace and wisdom now dawning.
Salvation is ongoing, and a day to day journey of spiritual adventure. Some people have more spiritual connection and insight; but others have other advantages in life. It is not a spiritual virtue, IMO, to look down on others and say they are not saved. It is not for us to judge this.
What I am opposing is that He intended a ritual sacrifice of Himself on the cross. I agree He gave His life for me, that He died on the cross for my sins, and that He has put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
I believe Jesus died for my sins.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
My belief is that unbelievers are dead in their sins. Believers have faith, hope, and love. Unbelievers may think they have these things, but need to be changed by God (born again).
You should do a Bible search/study on the "devil" or "satan". There are many false ideas in the world, including that the devil is really only our flesh that wars against what we ought to do.
It's not so much a matter of "good" Christians. For it is not by works that a person is saved. It is that if we do not believe, we are condemned already. If we repent unto faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ, there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1). We have been set free from the law of sin and of death, by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
This isn't "us against them". It's that in truth we are all in the same boat. If saved, sinners saved by grace. That we would not sin anymore, true. But never-the-less, no better than the one who practices sin in terms of our need for a Savior (Jesus Christ). Acts 4:12. And yet it is possible to be able to say "I have been saved".
It is not something to brag about, not being saved either. There is a verse that talks about a self-test.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
It may be debated whether people are saved, based on an outward showing. But the following verse puts some things in perspective.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
Because it is not by works that a person is saved (Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9). And yet a person who is saved will have works that fit with having repented. They will no longer be living in opposition to God.
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1 Timothy 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
1 Timothy 6:19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
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2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.
eameece
New member
Sounds like exactly the same thing to me.
The gospel writers may appear to say this (though Jesus himself does not), but anyone who believes this is believing something that makes no sense whatever. No-one can die, and by that means, cure anyone (let alone the whole world) of sin. Dying does not relieve sins. Dying for someone else does not relieve their sins for them. There is no connection between these notions.
Belief means nothing. The only thing believing does is put you in bondage to superstition. If by some means a person can gain faith in life and God, so be it. But God and Jesus do not condemn anyone, and we are all "saved" from condemnation already. The Devil and God are within you, and the Devil is false. We need to be released from our own demons; nothing else. There is no need to believe in a Devil just because someone tells you there's such a thing. Believing in things that people make up and tell you exist, is for children. I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, or Satan. It's time to put away childish things and act like men and women. America needs us to grow up and restore our democracy.
The purpose of the notion that "Jesus died for our sins; repent and believe in Jesus as the only savior" is to set us against them. It may give you faith, but it also divides you from others. Because then, one is saying you must join OUR religion or accept OUR book in order to be saved; others cannot be "saved," and so must be judged or condemned. It is not true. Universal salvation is true.
Christ is in everyone; that is everyone's higher Self. Not everyone realizes this. Realization of this is the goal, not salvation-- or in reality, they are the same thing.
What rises up the person so that "they have works that fit with having repented" is the experience of God. Pray and meditate for this.
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Shalom.
Jesus (Yeshua) was murdered. But being innocent of all, before God, His death paid the penalty for our sin. You can be forgiven and granted the free gift of eternal life in Him.
Shalom.
Jacob