What are the Weapons of your Warfare?

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Well, after Jay's grandios and vain thread about defiling the Qur'an,, it comes as no suprise to me that a Muslim, seeing that thread, should respond defending Islam. And already we have a number of threads with claims and counterclaims, and (unless I am sadly mistaken) many of the participants are doing a lot more to speak than they are to listen.

I thought I would share some observations I have seen for both Christianity and Islam ... but before I comment on these things, I have a few things that must be straightened out. Ayura, I cannot tell from your name if you are male or female. Considering that you initiated the private message conversation between the two of us, I will assume that you are male, but please accept my apologies if my assumption is incorrect.

Assumptions. That's what it all comes down to. Jews assume that their Book is correct, and therefore the additions that Christians have made are at best vanity. Christians assume that their Book is correct, and therefore assume that any book that conflicts is at best wrong, and at worst a lie from the Devil. Muslims at least accept that there is truth in the Tawrat and the Injil (the Old Testament and New Testament), though they claim that these texts were corrupted.

But what, then, will we have? Well, once we eliminate the false text citations (on all three sides), the accusations of wrongdoing (on all three sides), and are left with the endless circles of "But I'm right and you're all wrong," we can see this argument for what it truly is ... a fight between brothers.

You all claim to be descended from Abraham ... and it is certainly true that the actions of Jew, Christian, and Muslim resemble nothing as much as a blood-thirsty squabble over inheritance. Each claims to be "right" and tells the others that they are" wrong." And I have yet to see any of the three groups refrain completely from evil actions in their squabbles.

Now, Jew Christian and Muslim are going to argue--there's no help for that. But I would make a challenge for all in this debate--let there be no false or lying recitation of so-called "scripture." Some have already fallen for a couple of dishonest ahadith ... check your resources in the future, and if you cannot verify it, refrain from using it. And for my part, the first person to knowingly use a false citation loses.

A pity that we have no practicing Jews to represent their part in this debate ... but I encourage those who do choose to debate to do so with honor.

 

[wholearmor]

It comes down to whether you believe this or not:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

It comes down to whether you believe this or not:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If a self-proclaimed "Christian" goes out and gives a false and lying ahadith to "prove" how wrong Islam is, then how am I to know they are not also lying when they claim the above?

 

[wholearmor]

If a self-proclaimed "Christian" goes out and gives a false and lying ahadith to "prove" how wrong Islam is, then how am I to know they are not also lying when they claim the above?

You don't, but what difference does it make? You can read and study the passage in the Bible just like everyone else can and make up your own mind.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

You don't, but what difference does it make? You can read and study the passage in the Bible just like everyone else can and make up your own mind.

Wholearmor ... I have read that passage--and the rest of the Bible. And it is precisely bcause of my knowledge of the Bible that I am forced to reject it as anything but the work of men. But fear not. I take the same view of the Tanach; the Injil, the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon; the various Gitas .... even my own Book of Shadows. Each and every book you care to mention that any person on this earth has ever considered "holy" was written by men.

You do, however, bring up a very good point that I certainly hope Jay will listen to: one does not need to lie about the opponent's books to disagree with their position. Each position can (I assume) hold its own in an argument, and each faith can stand or fall on its own merits ... or lack of merit.

Let the fun begin.

 

[wholearmor]

Wholearmor ... I have read that passage--and the rest of the Bible. And it is precisely bcause of my knowledge of the Bible that I am forced to reject it as anything but the work of men. But fear not. I take the same view of the Tanach; the Injil, the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon; the various Gitas .... even my own Book of Shadows. Each and every book you care to mention that any person on this earth has ever considered "holy" was written by men.

You do, however, bring up a very good point that I certainly hope Jay will listen to: one does not need to lie about the opponent's books to disagree with their position. Each position can (I assume) hold its own in an argument, and each faith can stand or fall on its own merits ... or lack of merit.

Let the fun begin.

So why this thread? Sounds like you should simply come up with your own book for your own life.

 

[allsmiles]

Wholearmor, books that dictate spirituality are the first mistake. I am my own book, the world is my scripture, experience is my gospel.

 

[Ayura]

The original Torah, the original Psalms, and the original Injeel are all direct God's word.

Qu'ran is the only book which hasn't been changed. Ever. Since 1400 years ago with Islam was finished. This is not a proof, as every person on this board has a solid right to believe what they must believe. But the fact that Islamic scholars all over the world have mass amounts of proof that the Quran can in no ways be man-made (not a single person has been able to replicate 1 Ayaat in the Quran). Many people tend to called Quran "The final revelation."

Jesus is a very high figure. There is even a whole Sura in Quran called "Sura Maryam (Mary)". His name is mentioned 26 times in the Quran. His Quranic name is "Isa" and he called himself "Isaha" in Aramaic. We believe he wasn't God. We believe he was a prophet - equal in status fo Muhammad, Moses, Noah, Jacob, Abraham. He simply gave the message to worship One God - God. This was the message of all the prophets. It's as simple as that. That is our belief - If you want to treat Jesus as Godly and worship him - by all carry on.

Besides, there isn't much room for debate with me and Christians. Christianity originates from the followers of the Gospel (Injeel). People in that Era didn't worship Christ, they worshipped God. It would be wrong of me to curse Christianity.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

So why this thread? Sounds like you should simply come up with your own book for your own life.

Wholearmor, I have no problem with either the Qur'an or the Bible. Both are books that contain wisdom, if they are read with wisdom--and both books can be use to justify evil, if the reader has already justified that evil in their own heart. You already know that this is true of the Bible, and if you have actually read anything of the Qur'an, you would know that the two books are alike in many ways.

Yet I have also met "Christians" who were willing to lie about the Qur'an, just as I have meet Muslims who were willing to lie about the Bible. Both YHVH and Allah disapprove of lies ... but I have met those who will justify lies in the name of the "greater good" of winning souls to their cause.

I say to you--the Creator cannot be honored by a lie, no matter how well-intentioned it is.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Qu'ran is the only book which hasn't been changed. Ever. Since 1400 years ago with Islam was finished.

Ayura, this is not accurate--and has been known to be false since the discovery and analysis of the contents of the Qur'an Grave at the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen.

Justin

 

[fool]

Ayura, this is not accurate--and has been known to be false since the discovery and analysis of the contents of the Qur'an Grave at the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen.

Justin

What'd they find there?

 

[Agape4Robin]

The original Torah, the original Psalms, and the original Injeel are all direct God's word.

Qu'ran is the only book which hasn't been changed. Ever. Since 1400 years ago with Islam was finished. This is not a proof, as every person on this board has a solid right to believe what they must believe. But the fact that Islamic scholars all over the world have mass amounts of proof that the Quran can in no ways be man-made (not a single person has been able to replicate 1 Ayaat in the Quran). Many people tend to called Quran "The final revelation."

Jesus is a very high figure. There is even a whole Sura in Quran called "Sura Maryam (Mary)". His name is mentioned 26 times in the Quran. His Quranic name is "Isa" and he called himself "Isaha" in Aramaic. We believe he wasn't God. We believe he was a prophet - equal in status fo Muhammad, Moses, Noah, Jacob, Abraham. He simply gave the message to worship One God - God. This was the message of all the prophets. It's as simple as that. That is our belief - If you want to treat Jesus as Godly and worship him - by all carry on.

Besides, there isn't much room for debate with me and Christians. Christianity originates from the followers of the Gospel (Injeel). People in that Era didn't worship Christ, they worshipped God. It would be wrong of me to curse Christianity.

If Jesus was merely a prophet, then where is His grave? :grave:

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

What'd they find there?

Well, here's an older (1999) article in the Atlantic Monthly. The big problem is that any critical examination of the Qur'an is met with much the same response on the part of Muslims as a critical examination of the Bible is on the part of Christians.

Regarding the Qur'an specifically, this resistance to criticism has become much sharper after 9/11, due to the number of unwarranted attacks against all of Islam for the actions of a few.

I do need to make one thing clear here. I have utterly no problem with Islam, and I only desire to offer the Muslims I meet peace. I do not, however, accept Wahhabists as Muslims: they have not submitted to the will of Allah, but instead listen to the blandishments of Iblis. Further, I do not accept as Muslim those false serpents who believe it is acceptable to engage in terrorism against civilians. Carrying warfare to women, children, or the unarmed is forbidden, and those who claim to justify such actions in the Qur'an lie.

 

[fool]

If Jesus was merely a prophet, then where is His grave? :grave:

I think they think He went up with his body
that just got posted in another one of the many new Muslim oriented threads
(learn somthing everyday, specially round here)

 

[fool]

what do those strange words mean?
(you know the ones I'm talking about)

 

[Agape4Robin]

I think they think He went up with his body
that just got posted in another one of the many new Muslim oriented threads
(learn somthing everyday, specially round here)

As in resurrected? :think:

 

[fool]

As in resurrected? :think:

no
I think as in didn't die

 

[Agape4Robin]

That's just :kookoo:

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

That's just :kookoo:

:shrug: So is the tale of Enoch ... but you have no problem with that.

See, that's the major source of religious miscommunication between Muslims and Christians--Christians feel they can sling derision and mockery at Muslim myths, but they get terribly offended when the Muslims return the favor. And Muslims feel they can sling derision and mockery at Christian myths, but they get terribly offended when the Christians return the favor.

Like I said ... it's a battle between brothers.

 

[wholearmor]

Wholearmor, I have no problem with either the Qur'an or the Bible. Both are books that contain wisdom, if they are read with wisdom--and both books can be use to justify evil, if the reader has already justified that evil in their own heart. You already know that this is true of the Bible, and if you have actually read anything of the Qur'an, you would know that the two books are alike in many ways.

Yet I have also met "Christians" who were willing to lie about the Qur'an, just as I have meet Muslims who were willing to lie about the Bible. Both YHVH and Allah disapprove of lies ... but I have met those who will justify lies in the name of the "greater good" of winning souls to their cause.

I say to you--the Creator cannot be honored by a lie, no matter how well-intentioned it is.

I'm not condoning lying. All I know is, I was once where you are now...very mixed up and confused about the meaning of life and its purpose. I'm not now. I feel happy for me and sorry for you.