What does it mean to be 'Greedy' ?

csuguy

Well-known member
Socialism is institutionalized greed.

Greed, among other things, is the desire for more than you've earned.

This is a conservative position I've heard a few times, but not one I've seen defended. Is a child being greedy when he asks for something - whether it be something essential like food and water, or even something purely for enjoyment like a toy? Certainly the child didn't earn it - is he therefore doing something wrong?

As Christians, when we ask for forgiveness - are we simply being greedy? Are we sinning by asking for forgiveness rather than earning it? Is Christ teaching us to give into greed when he teaches us to forgive others? When he teaches us to give our own earned possessions to the poor and needy?

The fact is that all of us - from the most well accomplished to the bum on the street - have a lot of things given to us that we never earned, and that we couldn't earn even if we wanted too. I do not accept that this is greed. It is not greed to ask for food when you are hungry and can't afford it. It is not greedy to be in need or to hit hard times.

The position that Greed is to want something you haven't earned only serves to criminalize the poor and needy.


Capitalism, real capitalism, not the fake socialistic crap version of it we have in America, is all about the fact that you have no right to anything that someone else has to produce and that which you produce belongs to you, by right. That which you produce, you may dispose of in any manner you wish, whether that means you trade it (i.e. barter), sell it for money, use it, save it, bury it, burn it or give it away. It is yours to do with as you please because it was your time and your talent (i.e. your life) that went into producing it. Thus to give someone else a right to your production is to give that person a right to your life, which is slavery.

Except that no man is an island to himself. Everyone is indebted to society. Indeed, the reason a man produces things for sale in the first place is so that others will come and buy it. The money from the sale in turn is used to buy goods and services from others. So even the inspiration to produce finds itself rooted in society. The money itself has no value apart from society giving it worth.

Furthermore, a man's ideas are rooted in his society - for from it he receives his education, his overall worldview, and his ideals and values. Who could hope to build a computer, for instance, if he only had himself for education? How many lifetimes would it take?

If the man grows up poor, he likely benefited from social programs even if not aware of it. If rich, then the privileged kid was benefiting from the work of many people of the lower classes.

This is the foundational principle of true and genuine capitalism, a system that has never once been tried in its pure form. We got very close here in America and for one shining century, this country produced more wealth than any nation before it had ever dreamed was possible and improved both the longevity and the quality of life of everyone, not just here in America but throughout the civilized world.

Resting in Him,
Clete

And it only took slavery, killing off any opposition (union members), and generally treating one's fellowman like garbage.
 
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csuguy

Well-known member
It seems to me that man tries to invent the perfect system and institute it on earth. My observation is that the closer he (seems) to come to utopia, the more horrific the results that come from it. Socialism is one of those systems that provides great examples of that. Communism is one form of socialism and results in no real good. Socialism has seen many countries continually repressed and stuck in 2nd or 3rd world status. Capitalism - while not ideal - has been the source of much economic benefit in the world. And that is, I think, because it has the most realistic view of man as he is (not as we want man to be). In an ideal world, capitalism would probably not work, but in the world we live with man fallen as he is, the liberty of conscience and the preservation of private property and the individual is essential for a general peace and prosperity.

1. Communism was an extreme and highly idealistic form of socialism, and should not be criticized as a representation of all forms of socialism. I disagree with communism myself on multiple accounts. I would not propose complete economic equality and the dissolution of social classes, nor would I take the position that this would magically resolve all of societies problems.

2. Capitalism certainly reflects an earthly world view and value system. Some may, thus, consider it a far more practical system - seeings how greed is in great supply. But should we, as Christians, therefore embrace it? I say no: we aren't supposed to be of the world. We should instead strive for Christian ideals: honesty, charity, love for one's fellow man, etc. This doesn't mean that one can't make a profit, but it means that one is first concerned about the love for God and one's fellow man BEFORE one is worried about profits. A Christian who truly follows Christ will not act greedily.

I would say that this is actually a decent basic definition. Where the problem comes is in defining "necessary". Necessary for what? Marx answered the question by offering from each according to his ability to each according to his need. Man existed, essentially, to meet someone else's needs. Man didn't live for himself but for someone else. This ignores the incentive of living off the sweat of one's own brow - earning one's own bread - and succeeding or failing based on his own abilities and merits. In that case, if a man deems something necessary, he is responsible for pursuing it (lawfully) and earning it. If he is willing to pay the price, then he shouldn't be denied the fruit of his labors. With that understanding, each man gets to determine for himself what is necessary but doesn't place the burden of providing that on someone else.

I would disagree, as I noted, for it is not greedy to desire something better. Stale bread and water might make you through the day, but steak and wine would be preferable. The desire for these things does not make one greedy in of itself. To the contrary, desire is what drives people, for good or for ill. In Christianity, such desire is often spoken of as 'hope'. Does the Hope we have in Christ make us Greedy?

No - the desire to improve your conditions, your happiness, or the well-being of another - these cannot, in my mind, genuously be considered greed in of themselves. In of themselves, these are simply desires. What makes them excessive desires must lie elsewhere, such as in how much one desires these things over and against other things.


Again, I agree with your initial proposal but see the problem as being who gets to decide what is "excessive". As Lon pointed out, there are men who get as much as they want only to give it all away. Another example that comes to mind is R.G. Letourneau who regularly tithed 90% and lived on 10% of what he earned. Not only did the man make quite a bit of money and give most of it away, but he revolutionized the earthmoving industry (big trucks, dozers etc...) and established an engineering university that is still operational. All this from a self-taught man...If he had been limited as to how much money he could make, how the world would have missed out...

Such people are the exception rather than the rule. If these people lived honest, godly lives then they themselves were not greedy - and so their example does not really support Capitalism or that greed is good. Furthermore, their good example does not diminish the great evils done under the Capitalism, actions that were truly greedy and thus reflect the true heart of Capitalism.

Furthermore, if there were a greater distribution of wealth and people were taken care of properly, then there wouldn't be such a need for these rich humanitarians. When society as a whole takes care of people - they will do it better than any single person can hope to do by himself, no matter how rich. The pennies in people's pockets is a greater sum than the riches of the wealthiest members of society.


Yes. Greed has little to do with how much one has and nearly everything to do with the corrupt human heart. I venture to say that many - if not most - really poor people in the Western world are that way because of their inability to regulate their own desires (alcohol, drugs, possessions, even having time on their hands). There is more than enough opportunity for someone to establish themselves and do better than most of the rest of the world - if someone is willing to work. At least that's the case for now...

There are cases where people are just lazy and unmotivated to go and seize the day. However, that is hardly a fair characterization of the populace as a whole. People hit hard times, they lose jobs through no fault of their own, they get injured and sick, and suddenly they can't pay their bills - even if for just a month. They aren't paid a living wage to begin with - so its not like they've been able to set aside money to cover their expenses. Suddenly, through no fault of their own, they are straddled with increasing debt they they can't get out from. this is our society: we have a nation of wage-slaves.

The fact is that Americans as a whole work far more than any other nation in the world, and we get the least for it.

I agree that priority is everything. Even the most successful businessman will tell you that. Jesus even said that if we seek first His kingdom, then all these other things (worldly things) will be added to us. But I disagree with the idea that Capitalism encourages choosing gain over the well-being of one's fellow man. If anything, it does more to encourage than discourage it. Certainly more than socialism. Remember, socialism (and most other utopias) depend on the system itself to mold the individual and MAKE them act properly. Capitalism instead recognizes what man is and ALLOWS them to act properly. Certainly, there are many who have taken advantage of that to their destruction, but when there is less to go around to begin with (inevitably the case with socialism) and when a sense of personal responsibility is diminished (as with any system that tries to mandate giving), one ends up in a worse situation than giving freedom. And that's the key - liberty.

In so far as Capitalism encourages Greed it is putting money ahead of the well-being of others. Even obeying the law becomes an economic problem: are the potential gains worth the potential costs? How risky is it? In California, companies that refuse to pay for the treatments and medications it owes people - the penalty, potentially, is 10% of the cost of the treatments and medications. So what do they do? They refuse to pay, and thus reduce their costs by 90%. Thank you Arnold! :AMR:

(http://www.calaborfed.org/index.php...m_undoing_the_damage_of_schwarzeneggers_rules)

I am reminded of an anecdote I read in a history of money. It details the situation Elizabeth I had when she took the English throne nearly 500 years ago. Her father (Henry VIII) had been debasing the currency by replacing much of it with baser elements (thus the term "debasing"). When people began realizing what was going on, they held on to the more pure money while the cheaper money was kept in circulation. It's where we get the saying "Bad money drives out good". So Elizabeth had to strengthen the economy. In part, she made the currency inherently valuable again - but she also decided not to tax her people (part of why she became known as "Good Queen Bess") - or at least removed the legal obligation to pay. And even ended up having a lot of money owed her and England by the time she died. The result was that when the realm had to be defended, the populace was all too eager to step up and give all they had for its defence. Bottom line, if people are free to give, they end up being more generous (as a whole) than if people are made to give.
Yeah Capitalism!

Greed is bad, but covetousness is inevitably amplified under heavily managed economies.

If people just did what they should do, then I might agree with no taxation. But the fact is that people are greedy, and the people have needs that are not being met. The needs of the people should come first in the governments eyes versus the potential for generosity on behalf of the wealthy. The wealthy can give more if they so desire - but we must always see to the needs of the people.

God himself instituted taxes in the form of tithe in the state of Israel, and in the New Testament we are told to pay our taxes.

Romans 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.​
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
These programs are not working as well as they could or as well as they have in the past because they have been steadily de-funded and diminished. However, even in their present state they are better than nothing. Or do you think education should go only to those who can afford it? Should someone who has worked all their life be thrown aside and told to die because they got sick or injured? Should the old be worked to death? Should someone who breaks their leg be told that they must pay up or they can't get it fixed?

Social programs are the backbone of society, without which everything crumbles. Without it, even a small mishap/accident can send one plunging to the bottom, losing everything one has worked for. The result being a large, angry lower-class who have no faith in the system and eventually revolution. Likewise, people who start from the bottom have no way to better themselves. You say to work - but what position can they hold that would allow them to advance? They can be the world's best burger flipper - but that won't move them up in society. You say get a better job - but that requires education, and education costs money - and is thus largely inaccessible to people who don't come from money.

Well said.

Good to see you and your thoughtful commentary, csuguy.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
you need a concentration of wealth to build anything
buildings
factories
roads
bridges
etc
they all employ people
but
only factories create wealth

concentration of wealth is achieved
with
government and capitalists
but
only capitalists do it efficiently in order to create more wealth

to create jobs for the poor
you must allow someone to get rich
it is that simple
 

csuguy

Well-known member
you need a concentration of wealth to build anything
buildings
factories
roads
bridges
etc
they all employ people
but
only factories create wealth

concentration of wealth is achieved
with
government and capitalists
but
only capitalists do it efficiently in order to create more wealth

to create jobs for the poor
you must allow someone to get rich
it is that simple

Not at all. You need some money to build things, but you don't require anyone to be rich. Ma & Pa stores used to be the way of things before these giant, global corporations. They made decent money, but didn't reach anywhere near the kind of wealth these corporations have today. But there were far more of them, which increased competition, and the money stayed local, providing local jobs - not 95 cent an hour jobs over in India.

Also, things like roads and bridges, unless they are for private use, are generally created and maintained by the government. It is a common way that the government creates jobs - at least since the New Deal. Sanders is likewise seeking to create jobs through the maintenance of our crumbling infrastructure.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This is a conservative position I've heard a few times, but not one I've seen defended. Is a child being greedy when he asks for something - whether it be something essential like food and water, or even something purely for enjoyment like a toy? Certainly the child didn't earn it - is he therefore doing something wrong?
Idiotic stupidity not worth the time it would take to respond too.

As Christians, when we ask for forgiveness - are we simply being greedy?
Forgiveness is offered by God voluntarily. What He asks for in return, if anything is between Him and the one receiving His forgiveness.

Are we sinning by asking for forgiveness rather than earning it?
Forgiveness is not unearned! Christ earned our forgiveness (i.e. He paid for it with His life) and He offers it to us as a gift, none of which He was required nor forced to do.

Is Christ teaching us to give into greed when he teaches us to forgive others?
We are asked not to be hypocrites and to willingly forgive those who repent as we have been forgiven because the same price that was paid for our sin was paid for theirs.

When he teaches us to give our own earned possessions to the poor and needy?
Our own possessions are ours to do with as we please. We are not to give to the poor because their economic condition gives them a claim check on our production. Further the biblical idea of the "the poor" isn't your idea of the same. The poor and needy during biblical times was not typically the sort who refused to work but rather those who, like children, are unable to produce for themselves for some reason outside their control, whether because of disability, injury or disease. In any case, our charity must be our own in order for it to be a moral issue. In other words, whatever gifts we give to the poor must be given willingly or else its something else other than charity.

The fact is that all of us - from the most well accomplished to the bum on the street - have a lot of things given to us that we never earned, and that we couldn't earn even if we wanted too.
Like what?

I do not accept that this is greed.
I didn't ask whether you accepted it or not and don't care. Of course you don't or else you'd have to hold yourself as greedy.

It is not greed to ask for food when you are hungry and can't afford it. It is not greedy to be in need or to hit hard times.
ASKING for food is fine well and good! Believing that your hunger gives you a claim check on someone else's food is not!

I'd have no problem at all with the "Will work for food!" signs if they weren't lies! And I'd have no problem with soup kitchens if the people who took advantage of them were willing to work and didn't act as though they're entitled to the food that they neither earned nor good produce if their lives depended on it.

The position that Greed is to want something you haven't earned only serves to criminalize the poor and needy.
It isn't merely wanting it, that's coveting, and its not taking it by force, which is theft, its the idea that my need give me a right to your property.

Socialism institutionalizes theft. Socialists seek to take from anyone who has and to give it to those who don't. Based on what? The fact that the recipients of their "charity" have not earned it. But socialists do not perform this act of theft for free! They expect in exchange - POWER. They expect your vote and/or your political (i.e. popular) support and they aren't kidding.

Except that no man is an island to himself. Everyone is indebted to society.
Bull ****

Those who produce are those who create society. Without the produces there could be no society. As you, yourself argue next...

Indeed, the reason a man produces things for sale in the first place is so that others will come and buy it.
That's exactly right! But the producer does have any power to demand that anyone come and buy his product nor does a potential buyer have any power to force someone to produce what he wants to buy. Both the producer and the buyer are acting for mutual benefit by mutual consent. Thus an civil economic society is born.

The money from the sale in turn is used to buy goods and services from others. So even the inspiration to produce finds itself rooted in society. The money itself has no value apart from society giving it worth.
There is no such thing as society in the manner you are using the term. Society is simply the aggregate actions of people interacting with other people. I do not need society to agree upon a medium of exchange between myself and another person. And the first people to do so did it organically, that is, they did it on their own and it worked really well within their group and pretty soon the idea spreads and before long everyone is doing it and no one really remembers or cares who came up with the idea. But whether he is remembered or not, the idea of exchanging money rather than bartering goods came from a man's mind, not from some undefined, undefinable "society".

Furthermore, a man's ideas are rooted in his society - for from it he receives his education, his overall worldview, and his ideals and values.
An education is a service no one has a right to either. It is a service that must be provided by someone else and that someone deserves to be compensated for his time and skill in performing that services. It is interesting that socialist believe that an education aught to be provided free of charge to those who receive it but insist on over paying those who provide it. In other words, they understand that what they want to give away is not worthless. And again, they want power in exchange and get it. They get it in several forms. They get it by controlling what children are taught, they get it by laundering money through the teacher's unions (i.e. giving them money knowing that they'll receive fat campaign donations when re-election time comes around), and they get it in a hundred other ways that are all woven together in a hundred different ways, not the least of which is the creation of a society within the schools that is based on the notion that you are your brother's keeper.

Who could hope to build a computer, for instance, if he only had himself for education? How many lifetimes would it take?
Not as many as you think! We went from driving horse drawn wagons to the space age in basically no time flat! And the fact majority of that progress was made without much help at all from government. For the first hundred years this country functioned quite well without gazillions of government regulations and permissions and interference. Now, you can't hardly fart for free without a government permission slip.

And we do not need government (which is what you mean by society) to get an education! Oh my goodness! How much better would the education system be if the government just got the hell out of it! More people would actually get educated for less money and they'd get the type and scope of education that they WANTED rather than the idiotic, politically motivated drivel that passes for an education in this country today.

If the man grows up poor, he likely benefited from social programs even if not aware of it.
That depends on what you consider beneficial. The man that grows up poor but not hungry raises kids who do the same. How is that beneficial, either to the "beneficiaries" of your government "charity" or to the society off which they suckle?

If rich, then the privileged kid was benefiting from the work of many people of the lower classes.
BUT NOT WITHOUT COMPENSATING THOSE WHO DID THAT WORK!!!!

This people who work for a living do not do so for free! They are not slaves! Great companies become great because they are willing to pay what it costs to have the greatest talent working for them. Labor, in a free society, is just exactly like any other commodity, you get what you pay for and you only get paid for what you offer in exchange. If you labor is low skilled and therefore plentiful and easy to replace then the law of supply and demand means that your labor is not worth as much as it would be if it were difficult to do and hard to replace.

And it only took slavery, killing off any opposition (union members), and generally treating one's fellowman like garbage.
100% of that is all thanks to government intervention or was unjust to begin with!

Neither unions nor slavery are aspects of capitalism but rather of collectivism!

Slavery is obviously just theft and effectively murder and has no place at all in civilized society but socialism is just slavery-lite. It is socialism that seeks to take the production of one by force and give it to another. That's slavery by any rational definition of the term and it was the liberals, the socialists or better known as the Democrats, that fought to preserve slavery in this country, not the capitalists!

Unions are the same thing, really. It's just socialism on a smaller scale. People have the right to free association and can form whatever group they desire but they do not have the right to coerce their employer into paying them more than their labor is worth, which is what unions are all about.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
What does it mean to be 'Greedy' ?


***simply put; wanting to have more when we really don't need things.

Jesus says don't worry about what to wear or what to eat. He is saying we should not want more than we need. Most of us in the west need to take heed of wanting too much. I am one of them, of course. We are spoiled.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
This is a conservative position I've heard a few times, but not one I've seen defended. Is a child being greedy when he asks for something - whether it be something essential like food and water, or even something purely for enjoyment like a toy? Certainly the child didn't earn it - is he therefore doing something wrong?

As Christians, when we ask for forgiveness - are we simply being greedy? Are we sinning by asking for forgiveness rather than earning it? Is Christ teaching us to give into greed when he teaches us to forgive others? When he teaches us to give our own earned possessions to the poor and needy?

The fact is that all of us - from the most well accomplished to the bum on the street - have a lot of things given to us that we never earned, and that we couldn't earn even if we wanted too. I do not accept that this is greed. It is not greed to ask for food when you are hungry and can't afford it. It is not greedy to be in need or to hit hard times.

The position that Greed is to want something you haven't earned only serves to criminalize the poor and needy.
The fact that you give to your children (or anyone in need) what they need, is just that, giving.
It is not having it forcibly taken from you.


Wanting more is not a criminal offense.
Forcibly taking from another what does not belong to you is a criminal offense.



If socialism were strictly on a willing giving, it would be a commendable program.
But that is not the form of socialism we have created.
We have created a socialism that forcibly takes.
Our form of socialism is a criminal offense.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Not at all. You need some money to build things, but you don't require anyone to be rich. Ma & Pa stores used to be the way of things before these giant, global corporations. They made decent money, but didn't reach anywhere near the kind of wealth these corporations have today. But there were far more of them, which increased competition, and the money stayed local, providing local jobs - not 95 cent an hour jobs over in India.

Also, things like roads and bridges, unless they are for private use, are generally created and maintained by the government. It is a common way that the government creates jobs - at least since the New Deal. Sanders is likewise seeking to create jobs through the maintenance of our crumbling infrastructure.

how do you explain the obvious difference between russia and the usa?
 

PureX

Well-known member
Greed: excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions (dictionary.com)

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all [g]sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

This topic often comes up when I start discussing socialism versus capitalism. In our culture, they have attempted to ingrain the idea that capitalism is godly, and socialism is evil - and even that Greed is good. Even good Christians I know try to defend Capitalism and greed as beneficial for society; and I find this boils down to a divide on what 'greed' is.
The problem is that in the U.S, as in most capitalist countries, we have almost no understanding of the difference between greed and ambition. So we end up justifying our greed by labeling it, and thinking of it, as ambition. When it's not.

Here's the difference: a greedy man seeks to increase his own wealth by decreasing the value he offers in trade to others. He gains by their loss. While an ambition man seeks to increase his own wealth by increasing the value of his contribution to the trades he is involved in, with others, by increasing the value to everyone involved. The greedy man is just thinking of himself, and his own gain. And he doesn't care that his gain is someone else's loss. But the ambitious man understands that everyone else's gain is also his own gain, because not only does it increase his own wealth, but it increases the wealth available for future trade, and it increases the well-being of everyone involved, along the way.

The objective of greed is to 'get it all, for nothing'. And the more it succeeds, the more it destroys everyone's ability to increase the quality of their lives through commerce/trade. Eventually, both the economy and society will collapse. But the objective of ambition is to increase one's own value and quality of life by increasing everyone else's. Where a greedy employee just wants to get paid as much money as possible for doing as little as possible, an ambitious employee wants to get paid more money by increasing his contribution to the business enterprise he works for, making both it, and himself, more valuable. And where a greedy business owner wants to maximize his profits by selling the cheapest product possible for the highest price he can get, the ambitious business owner is looking to increase his profits by selling a superior product for a reasonable price to as many people as he can.

Unfortunately, the larger a business becomes, and/or the more outside investors it has, the more likely it is to fall victim to it's own inclination to be greedy, because the people making the decisions are further and further removed from the people the business is actually trading with. And with that distance comes indifference, and apathy … and greed. And as that greed begins to run amok, the businesses infected by it become more and more ruthless, dishonest, and ultimately anti-social.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Here's an essay everyone here should read … it's not long.

After Living in Norway, America Feels Backward. Here’s Why.
A crash course in social democracy.


BY ANN JONES | JANUARY 30, 2016

Some years ago, I faced up to the futility of reporting true things about America’s disastrous wars and so I left Afghanistan for another remote mountainous country far away. It was the polar opposite of Afghanistan: a peaceful, prosperous land where nearly everybody seemed to enjoy a good life, on the job and in the family.

It’s true that they didn’t work much, not by American standards anyway. In the US, full-time salaried workers supposedly laboring 40 hours a week actually average 49, with almost 20 percent clocking more than 60. These people, on the other hand, worked only about 37 hours a week, when they weren’t away on long paid vacations. At the end of the work day, about four in the afternoon (perhaps three in the summer), they had time to enjoy a hike in the forest or a swim with the kids or a beer with friends — which helps explain why, unlike so many Americans, they are pleased with their jobs.

Often I was invited to go along. I found it refreshing to hike and ski in a country with no land mines, and to hang out in cafés unlikely to be bombed. Gradually, I lost my warzone jitters and settled into the slow, calm, pleasantly uneventful stream of life there.

Four years on, thinking I should settle down, I returned to the United States. It felt quite a lot like stepping back into that other violent, impoverished world, where anxiety runs high and people are quarrelsome. I had, in fact, come back to the flip side of Afghanistan and Iraq: to what America’s wars have done to America. Where I live now, in the Homeland, there are not enough shelters for the homeless. Most people are either overworked or hurting for jobs; housing is overpriced; hospitals, crowded and understaffed; schools, largely segregated and not so good. Opioid or heroin overdose is a popular form of death; and men in the street threaten women wearing hijab. Did the American soldiers I covered in Afghanistan know they were fighting for this?

Ducking the Subject

One night I tuned in to the Democrats’ presidential debate to see if they had any plans to restore the America I used to know. To my amazement, I heard the name of my peaceful mountain hideaway: Norway. Bernie Sanders was denouncing America’s crooked version of “casino capitalism” that floats the already rich ever higher and flushes the working class. He said that we ought to “look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.”

He believes, he added, in “a society where all people do well. Not just a handful of billionaires.” That certainly sounds like Norway. For ages they’ve worked at producing things for the use of everyone — not the profit of a few — so I was all ears, waiting for Sanders to spell it out for Americans.

But Hillary Clinton quickly countered, “We are not Denmark.” Smiling, she said, “I love Denmark,” and then delivered a patriotic punch line: “We are the United States of America.” Well, there’s no denying that. She praised capitalism and “all the small businesses that were started because we have the opportunity and the freedom in our country for people to do that and to make a good living for themselves and their families.” She didn’t seem to know that Danes, Swedes and Norwegians do that, too, and with much higher rates of success.

The truth is that almost a quarter of American startups are not founded on brilliant new ideas, but on the desperation of men or women who can’t get a decent job. The majority of all American enterprises are solo ventures having zero payrolls, employing no one but the entrepreneur, and often quickly wasting away. Sanders said that he was all for small business, too, but that meant nothing “if all of the new income and wealth is going to the top 1 percent.” (As George Carlin said, “The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it.”)

In that debate, no more was heard of Denmark, Sweden or Norway. The audience was left in the dark. Later, in a speech at Georgetown University, Sanders tried to clarify his identity as a Democratic socialist. He said he’s not the kind of Socialist (with a capital S) who favors state ownership of anything like the means of production. The Norwegian government, on the other hand, owns the means of producing lots of public assets and is the major stockholder in many a vital private enterprise.

I was dumbfounded. Norway, Denmark, and Sweden practice variations of a system that works much better than ours, yet even the Democratic presidential candidates, who say they love or want to learn from those countries, don’t seem to know how they actually work.

Why We’re Not Denmark

Proof that they do work is delivered every year in data-rich evaluations by the UN and other international bodies. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development’s annual report on international well-being, for example, measures 11 factors, ranging from material conditions like affordable housing and employment to quality of life matters like education, health, life expectancy, voter participation and overall citizen satisfaction. Year after year, all the Nordic countries cluster at the top, while the United States lags far behind. In addition, Norway ranked first on the UN Development Program’s Human Development Index for 12 of the last 15 years, and it consistently tops international comparisons of such matters as democracy, civil and political rights, and freedom of expression and the press.

What is it, though, that makes the Scandinavians so different? Since the Democrats can’t tell you and the Republicans wouldn’t want you to know, let me offer you a quick introduction. What Scandinavians call the Nordic Model is a smart and simple system that starts with a deep commitment to equality and democracy. That’s two concepts combined in a single goal because, as far as they are concerned, you can’t have one without the other.

Right there they part company with capitalist America, now the most unequal of all the developed nations, and consequently a democracy no more. Political scientists say it has become an oligarchy — a country run at the expense of its citizenry by and for the super rich. Perhaps you noticed that.

In the last century, Scandinavians, aiming for their egalitarian goal, refused to settle solely for any of the ideologies competing for power — not capitalism or fascism, not Marxist socialism or communism. Geographically stuck between powerful nations waging hot and cold wars for such doctrines, Scandinavians set out to find a path in between. That path was contested — by socialist-inspired workers on the one hand and capitalist owners and their elite cronies on the other — but it led in the end to a mixed economy. Thanks largely to the solidarity and savvy of organized labor and the political parties it backed, the long struggle produced a system that makes capitalism more or less cooperative, and then redistributes equitably the wealth it helps to produce. Struggles like this took place around the world in the twentieth century, but the Scandinavians alone managed to combine the best ideas of both camps, while chucking out the worst.

In 1936, the popular US journalist Marquis Childs first described the result to Americans in the book Sweden: The Middle Way. Since then, all the Scandinavian countries and their Nordic neighbors Finland and Iceland have been improving upon that hybrid system. Today in Norway, negotiations between the Confederation of Trade Unions and the Confederation of Norwegian Enterprise determine the wages and working conditions of most capitalist enterprises, public and private, that create wealth, while high but fair progressive income taxes fund the state’s universal welfare system, benefitting everyone. In addition, those confederations work together to minimize the disparity between high-wage and lower-wage jobs. As a result, Norway ranks with Sweden, Denmark, and Finland among the most income-equal countries in the world, and its standard of living tops the charts.

So here’s the big difference: in Norway, capitalism serves the people. The government, elected by the people, sees to that. All eight of the parties that won parliamentary seats in the last national election, including the conservative Høyre party now leading the government, are committed to maintaining the welfare state. In the US, however, neoliberal politics put the foxes in charge of the henhouse, and capitalists have used the wealth generated by their enterprises (as well as financial and political manipulations) to capture the state and pluck the chickens. They’ve done a masterful job of chewing up organized labor. Today, only 11 percent of American workers belong to a union. In Norway, that number is 52 percent; in Denmark, 67 percent; in Sweden, 70 percent.

In the US, oligarchs maximize their wealth and keep it, using the “democratically elected” government to shape policies and laws favorable to the interests of their foxy class. They bamboozle the people by insisting, as Hillary Clinton did at that debate, that all of us have the “freedom” to create a business in the “free” marketplace, which implies that being hard up is our own fault.

In the Nordic countries, on the other hand, democratically elected governments give their populations freedom from the market by using capitalism as a tool to benefit everyone. That liberates their people from the tyranny of the mighty profit motive that warps so many American lives, leaving them freer to follow their own dreams — to become poets or philosophers, bartenders or business owners, as they please.


Family Matters

Maybe our politicians don’t want to talk about the Nordic Model because it shows so clearly that capitalism can be put to work for the many, not just the few.

Consider the Norwegian welfare state. It’s universal. In other words, aid to the sick or the elderly is not charity, grudgingly donated by elites to those in need. It is the right of every individual citizen. That includes every woman, whether or not she is somebody’s wife, and every child, no matter its parentage. Treating every person as a citizen affirms the individuality of each and the equality of all. It frees every person from being legally possessed by another — a husband, for example or a tyrannical father.

Which brings us to the heart of Scandinavian democracy: the equality of women and men. In the 1970s, Norwegian feminists marched into politics and picked up the pace of democratic change. Norway needed a larger labor force, and women were the answer. Housewives moved into paid work on an equal footing with men, nearly doubling the tax base. That has, in fact, meant more to Norwegian prosperity than the coincidental discovery of North Atlantic oil reserves. The Ministry of Finance recently calculated that those additional working mothers add to Norway’s net national wealth a value equivalent to the country’s “total petroleum wealth” — currently held in the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund, worth more than $873 billion. By 1981, women were sitting in parliament, in the prime minister’s chair, and in her cabinet.

American feminists also marched for such goals in the 1970s, but the Big Boys, busy with their own White House intrigues, initiated a war on women that set the country back and still rages today in brutal attacks on women’s basic civil rights, health care, and reproductive freedom. In 1971, thanks to the hard work of organized feminists, Congress passed the bipartisan Comprehensive Child Development Bill to establish a multi-billion dollar national day care system for the children of working parents. In 1972, President Richard Nixon vetoed it, and that was that. In 1972, Congress also passed a bill (first proposed in 1923) to amend the Constitution to grant equal rights of citizenship to women. Ratified by only 35 states, three short of the required 38, that Equal Rights Amendment, or ERA, was declared dead in 1982, leaving American women in legal limbo.

In 1996, President Bill Clinton signed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, obliterating six decades of federal social welfare policy “as we know it,” ending federal cash payments to the nation’s poor, and consigning millions of female heads of household and their children to poverty, where many still dwell 20 years later. Today, nearly half a century after Nixon trashed national child care, even privileged women, torn between their underpaid work and their kids, are overwhelmed.

Things happened very differently in Norway. There, feminists and sociologists pushed hard against the biggest obstacle still standing in the path to full democracy: the nuclear family. In the 1950s, the world-famous American sociologist Talcott Parsons had pronounced that arrangement — with hubby at work and the little wife at home — the ideal setup in which to socialize children. But in the 1970s, the Norwegian state began to deconstruct that undemocratic ideal by taking upon itself the traditional unpaid household duties of women. Caring for the children, the elderly, the sick, and the disabled became the basic responsibilities of the universal welfare state, freeing women in the workforce to enjoy both their jobs and their families. That’s another thing American politicians — still, boringly, mostly odiously boastful men — surely don’t want you to think about: that patriarchy can be demolished and everyone be the better for it.

Paradoxically, setting women free made family life more genuine. Many in Norway say it has made both men and women more themselves and more alike: more understanding and happier. It also helped kids slip from the shadow of helicopter parents. In Norway, mother and father in turn take paid parental leave from work to see a newborn through its first year or more. At age one, however, children start attending a neighborhood barnehage (kindergarten) for schooling spent largely outdoors. By the time kids enter free primary school at age six, they are remarkably self-sufficient, confident, and good-natured. They know their way around town, and if caught in a snowstorm in the forest, how to build a fire and find the makings of a meal. (One kindergarten teacher explained, “We teach them early to use an axe so they understand it’s a tool, not a weapon.”)

To Americans, the notion of a school “taking away” your child to make her an axe wielder is monstrous. In fact, Norwegian kids, who are well acquainted in early childhood with many different adults and children, know how to get along with grown ups and look after one another. More to the point, though it’s hard to measure, it’s likely that Scandinavian children spend more quality time with their work-isn’t-everything parents than does a typical middle-class American child being driven by a stressed-out mother from music lessons to karate practice. For all these reasons and more, the international organization Save the Children cites Norway as the best country on Earth in which to raise kids, while the US finishes far down the list in 33rd place.

Don’t Take My Word For It

This little summary just scratches the surface of Scandinavia, so I urge curious readers to Google away. But be forewarned. You’ll find much criticism of all the Nordic Model countries. The structural matters I’ve described — of governance and family — are not the sort of things visible to tourists or visiting journalists, so their comments are often obtuse. Take the American tourist/blogger who complained that he hadn’t been shown the “slums” of Oslo. (There are none.) Or the British journalist who wrote that Norwegian petrol is too expensive. (Though not for Norwegians, who are, in any case, leading the world in switching to electric cars.)

Neoliberal pundits, especially the Brits, are always beating up on the Scandinavians in books, magazines, newspapers, and blogs, predicting the imminent demise of their social democracies and bullying them to forsake the best political economy on the planet. Self-styled experts still in thrall to Margaret Thatcher tell Norwegians they must liberalize their economy and privatize everything short of the royal palace. Mostly, the Norwegian government does the opposite, or nothing at all, and social democracy keeps on ticking.

It’s not perfect, of course. It has always been a carefully considered work in progress. Governance by consensus takes time and effort. You might think of it as slow democracy. But it’s light years ahead of us.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
it's too long




What is it, though, that makes the Scandinavians so different?



i suspect it has something to do with an absence of this sort of nonsense:

l.jpg
 

elohiym

Well-known member
All you have to do is look at the history of the world, in which the vast majority of people have lived in poverty, and what capitalism has done to bring so many out of poverty to know that your assessment is wrong. And I would say there is AT LEAST as much greed present in the poor or those who at least feel "poorer" than their neighbors, who then justify hating those who have more than them and coveting their property. If not more.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that deposit expansion (banks creating money) is the cause rather than capitalism? I think so.

If governments were creating that money at no cost to the people and spending it into the economy, it would be more like prosperity.

Presently, banks get to create money and lend it to governments and people, which makes them slaves to the banking systems.

Debt slavery isn't prosperity according the scriptures, right?
 

csuguy

Well-known member
The fact that you give to your children (or anyone in need) what they need, is just that, giving.
It is not having it forcibly taken from you.


Wanting more is not a criminal offense.
Forcibly taking from another what does not belong to you is a criminal offense.



If socialism were strictly on a willing giving, it would be a commendable program.
But that is not the form of socialism we have created.
We have created a socialism that forcibly takes.
Our form of socialism is a criminal offense.

No one is suggesting that people should go around and steal from others. Unless this is a veiled attack on taxes - in which case you are mischaracterizing them. Taxes are part of the cost of citizenship. Scripture itself advocates we pay taxes.

Romans 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Mark 12:17 And Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were amazed at Him.​

Furthermore, God himself established taxes and welfare in the state of Israel - in the form of tithe.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
how do you explain the obvious difference between russia and the usa?

Soviet Russia was communist - which I don't support. Communism is an extreme form of socialism. The US itself has some socialism, though not enough IMHO.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
The problem is that in the U.S, as in most capitalist countries, we have almost no understanding of the difference between greed and ambition. So we end up justifying our greed by labeling it, and thinking of it, as ambition. When it's not...

I agree with that. There is nothing wrong with ambition in of itself. There is nothing wrong with the desire to have money, to prosper, to better yourself, etc. It's when you place too much importance on that ambition and it turns to greed - that it is when it starts to harm society rather than edify it.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Idiotic stupidity not worth the time it would take to respond too.

Not at all - that is a critique of the application of your supplied defintion. If you consider the result 'idiotic stupidity' then you should rethink your position.

Forgiveness is offered by God voluntarily. What He asks for in return, if anything is between Him and the one receiving His forgiveness.

In Social programs, the state is voluntarily rendering goods and services to the people.

Forgiveness is not unearned! Christ earned our forgiveness (i.e. He paid for it with His life) and He offers it to us as a gift, none of which He was required nor forced to do.

You are now contradicting yourself - for your definition was concerned with wanting something that you had not earned. Now you say that if someone else earned it and voluntarily gives it to you then its OK too.

If that's the case then you lose your attack on socialism - since socialism gives to citizens voluntarily. Socialism earns its money both through any business it does and through taxes - the cost of citizenship.

We are asked not to be hypocrites and to willingly forgive those who repent as we have been forgiven because the same price that was paid for our sin was paid for theirs.

But they no more earned it than did we. In either case, under your definition, we are being greedy to desire and ask for forgiveness rather than working off our debts.

Our own possessions are ours to do with as we please. We are not to give to the poor because their economic condition gives them a claim check on our production. Further the biblical idea of the "the poor" isn't your idea of the same. The poor and needy during biblical times was not typically the sort who refused to work but rather those who, like children, are unable to produce for themselves for some reason outside their control, whether because of disability, injury or disease. In any case, our charity must be our own in order for it to be a moral issue. In other words, whatever gifts we give to the poor must be given willingly or else its something else other than charity.

This is a gross mischaracterization of the poor. Are there some who play the system and refuse to work for no good reason? Sure. But many people who need help are working - and they are probably working more than you: 50, or even 60 hours per week. The problem is not that they don't work, its that these corporations pay them as little as possible so that it isn't even a living wage. And when they get sick or injured, they don't have the money to cover their expenses while they recover.

And no - it doesn't have to be about you yourself giving to those in need for it to be a moral issue. When you are deciding the values, programs, and policies for a nation - you are deciding as a nation how important the poor, among other issues, are to the nation. Do we assist them or let them die on the streets? If we assist them, do we assist them enough to get back on their feet or just enough so they don't starve?

Malachi 3:8-15 “Will a man [m]rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and [n]offerings. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are [o]robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be [p]food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until [q]it overflows. 11 Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not [r]destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes,” says the Lord of hosts. 12 “All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land,” says the Lord of hosts.

13 “Your words have been arrogant against Me,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘What have we spoken against You?’ 14 You have said, ‘It is vain to serve God; and what profit is it that we have kept His charge, and that we have walked in mourning before the Lord of hosts? 15 So now we call the arrogant blessed; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.’”


Like what?

Life for one, and all the care from our parents and any support from the state that went into our raising - like K-12 education. If you went to college, even if you paid for your tuition, you received a highly subsidized education. If you weren't filthy rich, you probably received subsidized loans and federal grants. Your knowledge that you received, whether through schooling or private studies, is the cumulation of society over thousands of years. If you ever received treatment at the ER, ever used medicare, then you've benefited from social programs. If you are planning on ever retiring - that is thanks to social security that everyone pays into.

ASKING for food is fine well and good! Believing that your hunger gives you a claim check on someone else's food is not!

I'd have no problem at all with the "Will work for food!" signs if they weren't lies! And I'd have no problem with soup kitchens if the people who took advantage of them were willing to work and didn't act as though they're entitled to the food that they neither earned nor good produce if their lives depended on it.

You are judging and criminalizing the poor once more. Most people who are put onto the street are only there temporarily - for a few months. Then they are back to work. However, in the interim - because of people like you who blindly judge them for daring to be in need - they lose everything they've worked for, they must beg for food, clothing, and shelter. You don't take into account the fact that people don't like living out on the streets with nothing to call their own - you don't take into account the fact that many of them are looking for work, but are having trouble finding it. You seem to think that because you have a job anyone should be able to immediately find a job. Non-sense.

1 John 3:16-18 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his [g]heart [h]against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.​

Furthermore, whether they themselves covet or the like - that does not excuse us from leaving them in their time of need. The governments responsibility is to care for its citizens - all of them, not just the rich ones. And as Christians - that is what we are commanded to do: to feed and clothe the needy, to give them shelter and care in their time of need. Doing this or not is what divides the sheeps from the goats.

It isn't merely wanting it, that's coveting, and its not taking it by force, which is theft, its the idea that my need give me a right to your property.

They aren't demanding it. The government demands taxes, which are its right - the cost of citizenship. The government then decides what to do with its money.

Socialism institutionalizes theft. Socialists seek to take from anyone who has and to give it to those who don't. Based on what? The fact that the recipients of their "charity" have not earned it. But socialists do not perform this act of theft for free! They expect in exchange - POWER. They expect your vote and/or your political (i.e. popular) support and they aren't kidding.


Wrong - taxes are not theft. The scriptures themselves support taxation, and God established taxes and welfare in the form of tithe.


Bull ****

Those who produce are those who create society. Without the produces there could be no society. As you, yourself argue next...

So the rich man isn't indebted to the police department, the army, and other social services that protect his interests? Furthermore, someone only produces something because society exists in the first place so that he can sell these goods and thus acquire other goods and services. Without society, there would be no need for producing anything more than what one needs.

There is no such thing as society in the manner you are using the term. Society is simply the aggregate actions of people interacting with other people. I do not need society to agree upon a medium of exchange between myself and another person. And the first people to do so did it organically, that is, they did it on their own and it worked really well within their group and pretty soon the idea spreads and before long everyone is doing it and no one really remembers or cares who came up with the idea. But whether he is remembered or not, the idea of exchanging money rather than bartering goods came from a man's mind, not from some undefined, undefinable "society".

Yes you do need society for such a medium of exchange - for two people is the minimum for a society. At any rate - a barter system would work better if there were only two people. Its when there are several different kinds of goods and services from different sources that you want to acquire where a medium of exchange becomes important.

The rest of your post is more of the same so I'm gonna cut off my response here. If there was a particular part beyond this that you wanted me to respond to let me know.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that deposit expansion (banks creating money) is the cause rather than capitalism? I think so.

If governments were creating that money at no cost to the people and spending it into the economy, it would be more like prosperity.

Presently, banks get to create money and lend it to governments and people, which makes them slaves to the banking systems.

Debt slavery isn't prosperity according the scriptures, right?
I agree with this. But if the government creates too much money, and spends it into the economy too quickly, it will simply devalue the money, rather than increase the wealth. And this is why addressing the corruption of government is even more important than changing the way we input money. If we change the way we input money, but do not stop the corruption, it is inevitable that the government will simply input more and more money for all their crony's pet projects until the money is nearly worthless.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Socialism institutionalizes theft. Socialists seek to take from anyone who has and to give it to those who don't. Based on what? The fact that the recipients of their "charity" have not earned it. But socialists do not perform this act of theft for free! They expect in exchange - POWER. They expect your vote and/or your political (i.e. popular) support and they aren't kidding.

Clete is confusing socialism with a bad type of communism.

The important question is--

What will Christians do as society goes further down the shute from Babylonish to the mark of the Beast.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This applies to all of society in the west, not just the religious--

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Here's an essay everyone here should read … it's not long.

The Ministry of Finance recently calculated that those additional working mothers add to Norway’s net national wealth a value equivalent to the country’s “total petroleum wealth” — currently held in the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund, worth more than $873 billion.

Well what the hell is it doing in there??

LA
 
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